90: Navigating Burnout During Your Journey to a PhD: An Immigrant’s Perspective with Dr. Gina Vanegas

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Welcome, everyone. I'm really excited. We have another guest speaker, and today our speaker is going to be talking to us all about navigating burnout during your journey to a PhD, an immigrants perspective with Dr. Gina Vanegas. I'll get started with reading Dr. Gina's bio.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Dr. Gina Vanegas, who uses pronouns she/her, is a Latinx bilingual Psychology Postdoctoral Fellow and qualitative researcher, and experienced speaker. She immigrated from Colombia at 16 years old and became the first person in her family to receive a PhD. She is passionate about contributing to the self empowerment of underrepresented communities by sharing her training in the area of social justice and psychology, and by engaging in advocacy efforts to deconstruct systemic barriers. Welcome to the podcast, Gina - or Dr. Gina.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I'm excited to chat a little bit more about this topic, and to have an opportunity to also tell my story. I appreciate you creating this space.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, I'm really happy to have you on, especially because you're someone I know. You're someone that I greatly respect. For the listeners, they don't know our relationship. We worked together in the UCSB McNair program. And I recall just how comfortable the students were with you, how much they reached out to you. Just what an amazing resource and support you were to them. I think that that will only kind of continue to spread through the listeners, and anybody else who you come into contact. I'm excited for you to share a little bit more about yourself, about your background, and your journey to the PhD. Feel free to share whatever you're comfortable with.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yeah, definitely. Thank you for that lovely intro. And yes, I was so appreciative of being able to work with you too through the McNair office. It was just such a lovely experience. And I'll talk a little bit about the role that McNair had in my life, because it really was such a helpful resource for me in so many different ways. But I guess to start, I came to the US when I was 16 years old. Everybody's immigration story is unique. What is unique about mine is that I came because I wanted to come. I actually convinced my parents and begged them to come to the US, because my dream was to graduate from a university in the US. So that's a little unique.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I had no idea actually.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's so interesting. I'll let you keep going.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I think that shaped a lot about the way we kind of got introduced to the US and American culture. I did speak some English before coming to the US. There were a lot of things that I still needed to work on grammar wise, pronunciation wise. To this day, I still get called on my accent. There's so many factors that I was still learning. And when we immigrated, we immigrated to Atlanta, Georgia. We actually immigrated to a small suburb of Atlanta. That also kind of shaped my experience, or my first years in the US. This lovely dream that I had in my mind, in reality, was nothing like what I was expecting, and it quickly dissipated within six months.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I say that because sometimes the geographical areas that we immigrate to- or what you've shared before, the programs that you choose- have such an impact on your experience. That certainly was the case for me. I knew I wanted to be a psychologist in my teens. I didn't know how long it was going to take, and it's taking a long time. I'm still in that process. It's a wonderful field, but it definitely has had a lot of work and a lot of tears and a lot of just persistence.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I think it's important to kind of consider as immigrants, and as first gens, the idea of energy. How do we create energy? How do we keep energy? How do we not waste energy? How do we maintain our energy? And because I immigrated at 16 years old, I did my last two years of high school in the US.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh wow.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

So there was a really steep learning curve of like- I didn't even know what the SATs were.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

What did you expect? Because I know you said earlier that what you dreamt was very different from the actual reality. So you arrive to the US, and you are a teenager in high school. You gotta finish up high school. What did you think school would be like versus what it actually was like?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I had the privilege of studying in a school in Colombia that supposedly mimiced the system here. That was not true. That was very different. I think I was in awe at the beginning of like just oh, I'm hearing English all around me, and being immersed in this other arena, this other world that I'd never known. And I consumed a lot of media that was in English when I was in Colombia. So I guess I assumed that it would be some sort of version of like, I don't know, one of the shows that I had seen. I have no idea what I expected.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It seems like- I just can't imagine being that age and then navigating a new culture, a new language, a new school system. And then still figuring out a way to go to college after that. I can imagine that feeling of it being completely different continuing on in college, too. Can you tell us a little bit about what college was like too for you?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Exactly. I think because of that steep learning curve, I didn't get into a four year school. I got into a two year school, and there was a lot of shame about that. People I knew were going into these amazing schools. And I think that feeling has stayed on throughout my journey of like, I'm not doing enough. I need to be on more extracurriculars. I need to talk to more people. I need to network. It's the constant catching up that kind of has stayed along the education journey.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

It was learning how to write an admissions essay, while learning English- how to write properly in English. While also learning that I looked different, and people pointing that out very quickly. Learning that I had an accent, and learning that I stood out to people in different ways. And some people were okay with that. Some people are not okay with that. I think that has been true throughout my journey. Xenophobia has definitely been a part of it. I mentioned that because sometimes we don't realize I think, as first gens, that our starting point is different than other people who might have generations of people going to the same schools, who have many engineers in their families or things like that. That was not my experience.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

So I didn't really have anyone that I could turn to who could understand what that experience was like. I know other people have talked about this on your podcast. And that is still true very much as an immigrant, with the added microaggressions about being an immigrant, or being picked on around that. So I think for me, it was just this constant battling of like, how do I get into a four year school? Then once you get into the four year school, how do I get into grad school? And now what do I need to do?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I mean, I remember working 30 hours a week, and then going on a Friday afternoon- because my school was an hour away from where I live. So I had to drive in the middle of Atlanta traffic- which people who know Atlanta, traffic can be bad. Not as bad as LA, but bad. Friday afternoon to go volunteer at a lab in hopes that somebody would give me a recommendation letter. That takes a lot of work. And I don't think that we realize how much work - on top of figuring out, what are the requirements? The emotional labor that it takes to get to the next level is really what eventually led to my burnout in getting to grad school.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I had applied. Because, again, the steep learning curve, you're learning so many things at so many times in different ways. You're trying to put it all together to fit in this nice package in an admissions letter. How do I say all of this in a way that people can understand, and relate, and want to give me a scholarship or whatever it is that I'm trying to do? So I actually applied. I was still very interested in psychology, and I applied to a bunch of PhD programs without knowing much of what that was like, or what did I need to do or whatnot.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I somehow got into McNair, and that, for me, was life changing. I was not very good about networking. I didn't know how to. But I was really good at finding resources. That was my lifeline. I found organizations to help me, because I knew that that was their job. So I was like, you have to help me. And McNair was certainly the case for me. My McNair advisor- not my advisor, but the program director - wasn't very supportive, and in fact, told me up front that I was kind of wasting my time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wait, the McNair director? You know, it's interesting, because I did a very similar program- the Mellon Mays program. And I had a director who was also not very supportive. Oof, I don't even want to get into it, because I don't want to start drama. But it was- I mean, he really did not do what he was supposed to do, and did not help us out or encourage us. It's just, I continue to be surprised at folks- some folks, not a lot, but some folks- who hold these titles and positions that are supposed to be supporting and helping the next generation, and then they don't. Or they're the opposite, they're discouraging. I'm sorry. I just jumped in. But I think I recall you mentioning that before, and it continues to surprise me as if you're telling me for the first time right now.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

And you've been in that position too. You can't even fathom doing that to somebody else, right? I think that has driven my passion of like, I need to be a mentor for other people, because I didn't get that. So I think that just kind of drives another area for me. That's why I'm saying, McNair had a big impact. That person, you know, I don't know what was going on in their life. To this day, I don't know where that was coming from.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

But at the same time, that was not the deal breaker. McNair continued to help me even through my grad school program. It paid for my tuition. It helped me in so many different ways, and it became kind of my community without even realizing it. I'm so grateful for that program for that reason. But it doesn't have to be McNair. It could be- like you said- Mellon Mays. It could be so many other organizations that are out there. And it's a matter sometimes of just really trying to find it. That could be really helpful, so that you're not just fighting through this race that you were not prepared for, that was not meant for you, that you have no tools for on your own. Because it can be so exhausting.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

And I think because I had been fighting my way through to get to grad school- oh, because I did apply to like twenty programs, and I didn't get into any. I got into one master's degree. I was disappointed and again, the feelings of shame. Like, oh I'm not good enough, the self worth, the doubt. And that was probably what was best for me at the time, because it allowed me to get connected to faculty who then actually became my recommendation letters for the next time I tried. That presented a better case the second time around. I took three years after my master's and was a school counselor for a little bit. That was really fun. I really liked that job. Then I applied again to grad schools, and I got into UCSB. I just could not believe it. LIke somebody must have done- must have had a mistake. They must have not-

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Can I just pause for a minute?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Let's pause on that. Because that happened to me. I hear that same- what is it called? That same voice in your head, like levels. That same kind of negative thought that comes up for a lot of us who are either first gen or immigrant students, of - someone made a mistake. I do not deserve this. I am not good enough. I just want to put a pause on that because I feel like this is something where again, it's going to resonate for a lot of the listeners. It's one, feeling like well, if I apply I'm not going to get in. Then if I don't get in, that's going to validate my feelings of not feeling good enough. And then if I try again and I get in, it's a mistake. Yeah, sorry I just-

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I hear it so much. Now, people refer to it as imposter syndrome. And yes, we all feel that impostor syndrome at different times in our lives. But I think that hits you so differently when you're a person of color, because you haven't had people to vouch for you. We haven't had sponsors. We haven't had mentors. We haven't had people to guide us, right? So I think, a rejection, or a no hits a little different when you haven't had that validation that you really need at this point.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. And one thing I want to add to what you said about sometimes we associate it with imposter syndrome. I think it's more than just impostor syndrome, because it's you constantly being made to feel like you are not good enough.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

So it's not that you feel like you're a fraud and you're not good enough. But constantly, all the microaggressions, the setting in and of itself makes you feel like you don't belong, and that contributes to your feeling of not fitting in, not being good enough. Even going back to what you said earlier, that feeling of you're constantly playing catch up, because people have generations of resources. Which then ties back to why so many of us are so resourceful.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's the strength. And always reminding yourself during that thought, the negative kind of loop in your head of I'm not good enough- reminding yourself, actually I am. Actually it's a strength. Actually, I'm resourceful. Actually, I'm resilient. And that hopefully helping you to move to the next step.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Totally.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I'm not sure what you're gonna say next.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

No, I appreciate that. Because I think putting things into perspective too, of like- it's not me, it's the system. The system is making me feel this way. But that's not necessarily an accurate picture, right?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

And it's hard, because when you're constantly being made to feel that way, it's almost like- I mentioned in a previous podcast episode, it's like gaslighting.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yes.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It's like, wait, am I the only one feeling this way? Am I the only one hearing this, what this person said as offensive? Or this person telling me that I should quit? Or whatever the negative message is that you're getting.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

So true. And I think we also think- okay, so what's the next thing that I need to get done? What comes next? What comes next? Then you think when you get to the next step, it's going to be better. I don't know, for some reason that reminds me of the feeling of like- oh when I get to the US and I get to study. Like it's this dream. But then when you get there, and it's not like that, that's heartbreaking. That's really- it kind of has that grief piece to it, of like- this is not what I thought it was gonna be.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I had an advisor who I had hoped to be my champion, who I had hoped to be my mentor, my guide. And that could not be farther from the truth. So a lot of my time in grad school became how do I strategize around this person? How do I overcome this- yet another obstacle? That comes at a toll. That amount of emotional labor, like you said, convincing myself constantly like, no, I do belong here. No, I am good enough. That constant lack of belonging, that takes a toll on your body. That takes a toll on your mental health. And that certainly was the case for me in my third year of grad school. My mental health really, really tanked. And I didn't know how else I could go forward. I really didn't know. I knew I wanted to go forward. I knew I didn't want to drop out. I knew that I just want to get to the other side. But I really had no energy in me left to keep fighting.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Can I ask you, though- I'm sorry to interrupt. At what point did you realize that you were burnt out? Because you said it happened in your third year, but I'm sure there was built up up to that. So I'm wondering, at what point did you start getting burnt out? At what point did you realize it? Then what helped you kind of navigate that? Because clearly, you finished. You're a doctora now.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yaay.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yaay.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Yes, I think that's such a good question. Because sometimes when you're burned out, you don't recognize it. And nobody's really going to tell you- hey, I think you're burned out. I think that's not the rule. What I remember of that- like, okay, this is not normal- was I was just trying to be everything for everyone. At the time- because I'm in psychology, we carry clinical caseloads. So I had clients that I was carrying as well, while teaching, while mentoring, while also attending classes, while trying to graduate. And what really kind of resonated with me is I had no energy for anything. Everything seemed like a struggle. Brushing my teeth was a struggle.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Sometimes- again, that idea of energies- if you're noticing that the little things, the little tasks, are becoming such a burden, I think that is a really big sign. And the other part of it too, is the apathy. For me, it wasn't as much as apathy, but I know that that's one of the ways that it can feel. It was more like, nothing will ever get better. Nothing will ever get better for me. Nothing will ever get better for the people that I'm helping. No matter what I do, the system is always going to crush me. I think those two things were kind of like- okay, I think this, I should not. You know, I should be showering. That should be a thing. This isn't normal.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

So I ended up seeking out obviously, therapy. I still remember my therapist at the time, who was fantastic. She was like, I think you need a break. And I looked at her like she was crazy. Like, I don't understand what you're trying to tell me. Why would I need a break? How can I be taking a break if I'm trying to graduate? She really helped me kind of learn that that was okay. And I think it took that conversation of like, you can rest. You're entitled to rest. You have the right for that. You have the right to rest.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Can you say that again? Over and over and over again.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

You have the right to rest. And while I'm doing I think about- my gosh, my ancestors, my grandparents, my parents, they have fought tooth and nail for me to get to this point. It is not for nothing. If anything, they have given me the privilege to at this point, be able to say when I need to rest. And I do it sometimes thinking about them. That's how I have permission to rest. That was really helpful. I think from there, I learned more of like, I don't have to go 1000 miles an hour. I can decide what rest looks like for me too, because I think sometimes people think like, I go on vacation for two weeks a year and that's enough. I'm like, no, it's not enough. So yeah, determining too what rest looks like for you, what is helpful.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I feel like what you just said was so powerful about needing someone else to tell you that you're allowed to take a break, that you're allowed to rest. That is huge, because especially in the culture of academia, taking a break, taking a leave, resting is not encouraged. Whether it's resting by setting firm hours on when you're working, or resting by taking a vacation. It's like what? How dare you take a vacation when you are a student or an academic of any form?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I hear that time and time again- not just among undergrads who are doing research. They're like, no, I can't take time off because my faculty mentor won't let me. I need to do X number of lab hours. To then grad school- no, I can't take time off. I'm sure you felt this way too- because I have these milestones, and this thing, and this thing. All these - como se llaman? Hurdles that you're constantly having to meet. If you don't do it, then there will be some sort of repercussion, negative repercussion. Then people get to their careers and they're putting their life on hold. They're like no, I can't take a break from going on the job market. Because then I'm not going to be as competitive and I'm not going to get that job and whatever. This what if idea, of like if I don't keep going, I'm going to lose out on these opportunities.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

And then people put their life on hold. They say I'm not going to have kids, or I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to travel. And I'm here for telling everybody in their mama that it's okay to take a break and that it can not only- instead of hurting you, it can actually help you. You can come back stronger. Sorry to go on a rant yet again, but everything you're saying, I feel like I just want to keep echoing it and putting it out there. I think that message is coming out. I'm hearing it more and more now which is great. More people are trying to make napping a thing. I still can't nap. I try but I can't.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I'm the greatest napper that you will ever meet.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I wish I could. I try and I can't. It's wild how deeply ingrained that feeling of constantly having to be on and productive and do work and how hard it is to unlearn that. Going back to this topic of burnout, you were in your third year. I had a question earlier, when you were describing burnout and how it manifested in you. How then did you distinguish it from other forms of mental health issues? Because I know for some people- like for instance, for myself, I did struggle and navigated through severe postpartum depression when I was a graduate student, because I had my son in grad school. It was hard for me when I was depressed. Actually, I struggled to brush my teeth, too. And I had days where I felt like kind of what you said, nothing will ever get better. Like, why am I doing this? There's no purpose in me doing what I do. So because for me, those feelings were more associated with depression rather than burnout. How do you distinguish between the two?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I think that's such a good question. I'm trying to think about how I want to answer this in a way that's thoughtful. I think as psychologists - not that I am one yet.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

In training, soon to be.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

In training, soon to be. Yes, hopefully the next four months. But in the DSM, which is what we use to look at different diagnostics, burnout is not a diagnosis.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, interesting.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Depression and anxiety disorder, that is a diagnosis that it would be under. For me, how it presented is- that was depression. There was a depressive episode.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

And it was included with anxiety as well. I think, at the end of the day, the way I think about it is this. Is it burnout? Is it depression? I don't really know. But I know that something has to give. I know that I can't keep going in the way that I'm going, because clearly, it's taking a toll on my mental healt. And my physical health, because once your mental health changes, your physical health also goes along. It's kind of like they both go hand in hand. So I would think about it from that perspective, of that's just a signal that you need more support at that point.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I think that's really helpful that you said burnout is not in the DSM. So burnout in and of itself can manifest in different ways. And the ways that it manifests could also be part of- maybe you're struggling with depression, or anxiety, or some other thing. But I wanted to also ask you, one is, what do you do now to make sure that you don't get burnt out? Or to try to, if you start to feel like it's coming on, to try to just nip it or to prevent it? Also, what do you wish you would have known in grad school that you could have done when you were struggling?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I think it feels like a full time job at times, honestly. It really does. And I'm getting better at catching it before it happens. So I think, one is if you recognize the signs, I think that's a little bit easier. Again, the idea of energy for me was really what stood out. Like, I haven't been showering. I'm not brushing my teeth. That's not normal. Trying to catch it before, it's the ideal. So that's one. Two, it's-how do you do self care? And I know, it's such a cliche word at this point. But how do you care for yourself on a daily basis? I don't want you waiting for your two weeks or for your one week vacation out of the year. What are you doing on a daily basis to disconnect from whatever stressor that you're facing?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Then the other part that I was wanting to mention too is having hobbies or having activities that build your confidence, that restore your faith in humanity. Because I think that was another thing- I had to cut down on news. I had to really look at what kind of media was consuming, trying to look at pictures of puppies or uplifting things because it really kind of balanced that worldview. That's what happens after you have a period of like- stress is good to a certain extent. When it comes to a point where it's too much and you're in that state for prolonged periods of time, that's what needs to burn out. If you stay in that way, that could actually lead to trauma.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

So it is really important that you are trying to develop strategies that you have for yourself that are going to be on a daily basis to prevent it from happening. Then as soon as you notice that, making sure that you're seeking mental help if that's what you need. Or even just- I think the other piece that is not often talked about is community, creating community. Who is in your community that can lend you support? For me, that has largely been my family.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

And I just want to mention this. The more education that I got, as I was moving forward in my education, I noticed there was a gap that was creating between my parents and me. Because they didn't understand my career. They didn't understand what I was doing. And so how could you call home and say that you're not feeling well, if your parents don't even understand it, right? The best piece of advice that I received was bring them along. Share everything you're learning. Call them. Tell them what your day was. Explain about Professor X. Tell them your classmates' names. Because then if it does happen, you can call them and they'll have context. And they'll be better able to support you. Those are things that I do that have been helpful for me in navigating burn out.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh my gosh, I love that. I feel like if anybody's listening and is a current undergrad or grad student struggling with burnout, you just named a bunch of really, really helpful things- from trying to catch it on before, to developing a daily practice or ritual of taking care of yourself, to building community. And if it's family- because for a lot of us, especially immigrant students or children of immigrants, family can be a big, big thing for us. A big support system for us. And I love that you said bring them along. I don't even think I intentionally realized that I was doing it in grad school with my mom. But I would have conversations with her, especially about people.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

That's good.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I remember my first advisor was so toxic, and I'd be like, esta senora, este y este y otro. This person, this lady would do this and this and this. She was so mean to me. And then my mom would be like, mija, le voy a prender una veladora. I'm gonna lighter her a candle. Oh my gosh, I do think that that helped.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes, it does. It does, because then you're not alone.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I think that that's part of the burnout. You feel alone in this mystery. And if you have connections to other positive aspects, then it's a lot harder for you to get to that really low place.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I love how you did that with your mom. That's amazing. I used to have cafecito with my mom and would try my- I did a qualitative dissertation. I would try the protocol with her to see if it would work, and she would aks me questions. You know, they loved it and I loved it. And it helped us connect better too.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, I love that too for you. I think this is a great way to start to wrap up the podcast episode. I just want to ask you one- well, technically two more questions. The second to last question is, is there anything else that you feel that you want to share about the topic of burnout or any last kind of final thoughts around the topic?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

No. Just again, making sure that you're building confidence outside of your work.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, yeah. That's the only thing I didn't say. You mentioned the hobbies. You mentioned getting involved in things that restore your faith in humanity. That's huge, not just for grad school, but for life.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

True.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I love that. The next question, the last question is, if folks resonate with what you shared, and want to follow you, reach out, be in touch, connect in some way, how can others reach you?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I am on social media at Dr. Gina Vanegas. Because usually it's misspelled. Other people from other countries spell it like Venegas. But it's Vanegas.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Vanegas, yeah. And which social media are you on? Because you mentioned social media. I'm assuming IG, because I have you on IG. But is there any other platforms?

Dr. Gina Vanegas

I am on TikTok. I am sharing more videos. If you want to learn more about what strategies I use to get to this point, that's kind of what I'm doing with TikTok. So right now, mainly Instagram, LinkedIn and TikTok.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Okay, I will make sure that I link this on the show notes. That way, they have your different social media accounts. Thank you. Thank you so much Dr. Gina.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Thank you too.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I loved catching up, hearing more about you. Some part, I was like, I had no idea.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

You never know who is going to change your life.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's really nice.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

Thank you so much for creating this space. It's so needed. I'm so happy that there's other people who are learning from all of us who have already been through this journey.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Dr. Gina Vanegas

So thank you for creating it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Thank you.