65: Perfectionism in/and Grad School with Dr. Veronica Eyo

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome everyone. I'm really excited. Today, I have another amazing guest. I am going to go ahead and get started by sharing her bio. So today's topic is on perfectionism in grad school, and there's a little voice in the back of my head that's wanting me to do things right right now as well. So it's a perfect topic for today- perfectionism.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Our guest is Veronica Eyo. Is that how you say your last name?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Eyo, yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Great. She is a bilingual licensed clinical social worker in Los Angeles. She provides therapy for individuals and couples. She has a passion for working with mothers, new and seasoned, and first generation students. Awesome. She's also a recovering perfectionist, and her experiences through motherhood, and navigating the higher education system as a first generation student made her aware of her perfectionistic tendencies. She's actively working on decreasing them for herself, and also to provide tools for others to do the same to live more fulfilling lives. Welcome, Veronica. So happy to have you.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Thank you for having me on. I'm so glad to be able to talk about this. It's a big topic.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It is a big topic. I'm not gonna lie, I have personally struggled with it. I continue to struggle with it, so I'm happy to have you on today. I would like to start- maybe if you can share a little bit more about yourself, your background- anything that you feel comfortable sharing, and also kind of relates to your experience navigating perfectionism.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Okay, so y'all know I'm a social worker. I'm a therapist- all about mental health, and just the importance of it. And I always say part of what led me into the field, it's just my own experiences growing up. I am first generation Afro- Latina. I was primarily raised by my mother. A little bit about me- I'm biracial. My dad is Nigerian, and my mother is Mexican. So I was very much raised in her culture, and her traditions and customs and things like that. But since my parents were divorced- they got divorced when I was young. That meant that as the older sister, I was placed with a lot of responsibility.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, I can share that as well.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

It's hard. It's a lot of work. You know, I actually didn't become aware of- one, about the term, even what a perfectionism was- until I think I was in my Master's program. I was getting my social work degree, and I had maybe thought- yeah, I like things a certain way. Or I definitely struggled with it. But I didn't necessarily hear the term until I was getting my MSW. Then I was like, oh, this is me. I need things to be a certain way all the time, like I need them to. Or if they're not, the internal dialogue that I was having with myself was so bad. I think people didn't necessarily see it on the outside. Because I do want to say, growing up, I wasn't necessarily encouraged to talk about how I felt on the inside. You just got to keep going, you know, just keep doing that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Same.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

And it's hard, right? Because in the same way, it's like, I do want to keep going. But also I don't feel good. I don't feel good doing this all the time. So as I became a social worker, then I ended up going back to school to get my doctorate after I had my daughter. I got accepted while I was pregnant with her, I just found out.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Wow.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

If there's many things of adding on another role, it's that you cannot do it all. Like, you cannot do it all. It's just, I had to do something about it, because it was not sustainable. You know, I don't think I'm perfect anymore, as I like to define. Or that I've overcome it, but I definitely am more conscious of it. I think that's a big part of the message, of why I wanted to talk about this is, because I think sometimes even as a recovering perfectionist, we still want things to be perfect, even though we don't want it to be perfect, if that kind of makes sense.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh my gosh, yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Like we know it's a bad tendency but we want we want- and we can get in that loop. We can get into it. So I have to say that I'm still in it, naming that it still happens.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That loop, yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

I mean, part of it is- and not all people who are perfectionist came from a background that I'm describing, but there is this piece when you did have to grow up sooner and when you had to have more responsibilities, and if there wasn't necessarily an encouragement to talk about what you were going through. Because the adults in your life were not talking about what they had to go to through, you know.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

We just internalize a lot of these things, and so we have to name them. That's kind of like the first thing, just name that it's happening so that we can start to fight them. So that's a little bit about me.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I have a feeling that a good number of my listeners, because a lot of them are first gen and they're are students of color. Some of them are like high achieving. They probably have these tendencies. So how would you know that you're a perfectionist? What are some of the traits? You mentioned having certain internal dialogues ,or wanting things a certain way. I can probably predict what some of the traits are, because I know I am a perfectionist. I don't know if I would even call myself recovering. I think I'm still struggling with it. But at least I'm conscious of it, and I go through that cycle that you mentioned, or that loop.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yeah, and I think it looks different for everyone. Right? So I'll talk about a- I hate to use the word general, but kind of like some of the common characteristics that I see. I see definitely the negative self talk when things don't go the necessarily the way that you want them to, or how you had planned that they would go. The high standards that you have for yourself and for others, because people are flawed. We are flawed, you know, and people - especially other people out of your control, when you find- like feeling extremely irritable, or to the point where you're looking at yourself, like why am I so mad that this didn't go this way, right? Like, group projects- y'all were in school, group projects.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's a struggle.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

That's a whole episode. But group projects, right, where you're upset, because someone isn't holding- and I will say someone not holding up their own is its thing. But when- let's say an emergency happens, and they can't come in. I think of an example of - or opposite, when you're trying to anticipate everything. So for example, let's say you have a group project, and you're like, okay, I got all these things planned. This may happen, so I'm going to plan to make that perfect.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh my gosh, yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

That's not a good trait, you know. As I'm saying that, I'm gonna call myself out. My daughter was born my first semester of my doctorate program, and I had a group project. And I was that person, like okay yall. I may go into labor. So if I go into labor, that means that I'm not here. But I will do all the work, and I'll have all these pieces, but I just may not be able to talk about them. And I sent it all as if I could predict when my daughter's gonna come.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I did the same thing prepping for my mat leave.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

But do you see- it's like, you're gonna have a baby.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I know.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

On this end, if that person was in my group, I'd be like- don't worry about it. Do what you can do, right. And I did have people in my group that were like, it's okay. I feel like if there's a reason not to be here, it would be because you gave birth. But we have those tendencies of wanting to leave things, even to the point where you're exhausted. Sometimes people that come in- when I see clients that come in, they notice that it can be either someone pointed it out. For example, it got to a point that they didn't start something, or they were supposed to- like I've had people, especially students, where they're like, I had to do this paper or this huge project or this grant or these big things, and I just froze. It was like the tipping point of it. I just kept saying that I wanted it to be perfect- and we procrastinate.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Because we're like, I need it to be perfect. So procrastination is not good. I'm guilty of it, too yall, so I'm not saying don't be a procrastinator.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah, same.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

But to the point where it's like, so many procrastinated events that you're just running on fumes.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

And I've had clients that have been like, someone told me- is this even a thing? Because I'm getting things done. I'm crossing off my goals, but I'm just not happy. Like, I'm just not. And then you know, the question is, what is happiness? Because I've always been with this trait. I get praised for doing all these things, and so it's reinforced. But we're not doing so well. We're not doing so hot.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

So kind of like balancing that piece.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I can imagine a lot of us that identify as perfectionists, or recovering perfectionists, also have struggled with people pleasing, so there's that external factor too. And then I think you kind of tied into this but I wanted to ask how perfectionism can come up in grad school. You kind of started to hint at it with the procrastination, which is a big one in grad school. Then I think there's that element of people pleasing you, and there might even be an element of guilt. Or at least in my experience, I've had that feeling of guilt for either not doing things, not doing things a certain way or constantly, that negative self talk of like, nothing is ever good enough. Especially in grad school when you receive a lot of- whats the word?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Responsibility.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Constructive criticism.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

And we're in systems that- I think we're stepping in there as people of color, we're getting in there. But look, higher ed wasn't made with us in mind. Okay yall, so we're already battling that piece. Then I think the piece that kind of ties into it in grad school is it can tie in to imposter syndrome. Right? A feeling like I didn't do it the way I should have done this, or I didn't put as much effort as I should have done. Or feeling guilty because you procrastinated, and it's like, I'm gonna be found out, that I don't belong here. Right? Because I didn't do it perfectly.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

The thing is, you never reach perfect- whatever that is. Even if you didn't procrastinate, you're going to be changing something or doing these things. So in grad school, I think it can show up- and again, like you said, that piece of it's been reinforced and it's been said, like, hey, it's a good thing. But then we're walking around sleep deprived, right? Or not really even enjoying our experience of why do we want to get here? A lot of the people that I see come to me after they've completed this degree. They're like, look, I worked so hard and yet, I kind of realized I didn't even pay attention. Not just pay attention, like you learned. But I didn't live. I didn't enjoy this time. When people pat me on the back to say, hey, you did this. It's like, I can't even tell you all these memories, because I was hustling so hard. There's nothing wrong with the hustle, y'all. It's just learning to also not necessarily always be keyed up or ready to give our best all the time. You know, that's also not sustainable.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

One thing that's helped me a lot- I'm sure it's true for you, too. Well, one thing is I wanted to do to clarify the difference between someone who's perfectionistic and someone who's a recovering perfectionist, because I think I'm closer to the recovering side. And what has helped for me has been becoming a mom- not that I'm saying everybody do this- because you have very limited time. You have to learn to be as efficient as possible. And you have to learn to be okay with what's good enough and not what's perfect.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But yeah, if you could share a little bit more about- what's the difference? How do you know if you are a recovering perfectionist or recovered? Is there such a thing as someone who's fully recovered from perfectionism? Because in my experience, I still struggle with it and I'm just kind of learning tools to combat it, or to manage it.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

I don't know if there's a recovered, yall. So we're gonna say us who like the end goal, and put it in a nice little pretty bow at the end. I don't know about that piece. I think the reason that I use recovering is because you have to be aware of it, but aware of how it's negatively impacting you. The example that I can think of is- sometimes we have- well, I'll pick on myself, so I won't disclose anything. I, for a very long time, knew that I needed things in a certain way. You know, we had to be on time all the time. With group projects, I very much would take on this leadership role, to the point where I was burning myself out. I could have said that I like things to be perfect, but I didn't think it was an issue. Because hey, I'm getting all these things done, I'm doing these things. And I will say yes, similar to you, motherhood really came and humbled me very much.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah I know. It's like, try to plan around being a mom, or around having kids.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yes. And I think that piece that comes with being a mom- and I'm not saying become parents, y'all. But it's that we become so conscious of the person that we're influencing.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's true.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Especially little people. I'm not saying that us as adults- like us, who we're talking about- that we're not influencing each other. I think we do. But we give more credit to, you know, you can figure things out. You can work things out. But kids, especially little ones, we think- we want to give them such a healthy environment, such a good place. Because they don't necessarily have those tools yet. So for the people who are maybe not parents, you don't have to wait until you become a parent or if you decide to become a parent, but it's very much the work that I will do in session is like what would you tell little you, your inner child, your little person in you.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Would you tell her- why didn't you do this this way? Would you yell at her- if it's a her? Probably not. Now, I will say maybe some of us did grow up in those environments where we were scolded for that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

But we can acknowledge that if we were scolded, or if we were told to do things in this way, oftentimes, that was that adult's coping mechanism to right? It wasn't a healthy one. We can acknowledge that it wasn't healthy, and now we can look at - okay, how would I have wished someone would have talked to me? So in session with me, we very much use this, of "our little people." I call them little us. How can we talk to each other? How can we talk to ourselves in this way that can really be beneficial?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

That's really where the recovering piece comes from. It's acknowledging that, yes, it served me well. But I am not going to enjoy my life if I'm always in this place.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Because some of these traits are amazing, especially as first gen students. Let's call this out. We are breaking barriers, and we're doing the work and that is amazing. But sometimes we can ask, are we happy? Do we know when to not keep breaking barriers? Do we know when we can look around and be like, hey, I'm good, you know?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

The balance is, I think you just become more aware- it becomes more second nature, right? So first step would be - okay, you acknowledge that you're recovering, and you acknowledge that this is not good. Then you start integrating some different tools. They still will happen. I will still sometimes have bouts of like, we need to be here on time, in this way- and dressed in this way. But what I'm aware of is what's happening- I can often stop and say what's happening for me? Like, why is this coming up?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

It takes practice to kind of be aware of it, and then to be able to say- if I do it in this way, is it going to benefit me? Or am I thinking, am I perceiving that it- because of who am I trying to impress? My mother in law coming over, or something like that. So the recovering is just acknowledging and wanting to do something about it. Then perfectionist- if you just call yourself that, then that's okay. Maybe you're not wanting to do anything about that. And that's okay, if you don't want to. That's okay.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You're saying there are definitely strengths to being perfectionistic, and then in some cases, or in some parts of it, it might be okay to do certain things a certain way.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I've been called very type A.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Same.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Some of my students who see themselves-

Dr. Veronica Eyo

see themselves in you?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

There you go- see themselves in me, also struggle with it. They're like, yeah, I'm type A. I like having things done a certain way. I think that part of it is a lot of folks who either grow up with a certain background, or they're also the older sibling. So I can see a lot of kind of overlap there. But then for students who may be struggling a lot, maybe it is getting in the way, maybe they are procrastinating or they find themselves just not really enjoying what they're doing because of such high standards, what would you recommend in terms of tools, in terms of strategies and things that they can try out to decrease those perfectionistic tendencies, or at least to manage them a little bit better?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

If it's no longer serving you, one- if you have access to- seek counseling. I know not everyone can seek that. But if you're in school, and you have student health insurance, see someone else to, for lack of a better word, call you out on what's happening with you. Because I think sometimes we can get into this- I can do this myself. I can use these tools, and and it'll be better. And I'm not saying that you can't always, but sometimes we have blind spots to ourselves, right.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

And so if you're able to get a third party, a close friend who's able to be honest- something like that, I think that that can be the first part. The second piece is, if you're into meditation, that would be a practical tool that I would recommend. It doesn't have to be long, and it doesn't mean that I want you humming, cross legged in nature. It's more of the tendency to be able to sit with the feelings or emotions or thoughts that are coming up for you.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Because I think sometimes we will procrastinate. That's going to happen, right? I bet even if you're outside of school, there's going to be things that we love doing. I love washing dishes. I never procrastinate washing dishes because that is my thing that I love to.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Can you wash mine?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yes. I love it. I love, love, love it. But if you ask me to clean the bathroom - because I'm trying to pick examples that are not school wise. If you ask me to clean the bathroom, all of a sudden, I got all these things that I got to do. And it's not helping me, because we do need to have a clean bathroom.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

So what I do is I- be able to sit with meditation. Being able to sit with- okay, yeah, this makes me uncomfortable. I just don't like getting on my knees to scrub a tub. It's just not what I like. it still needs to get done. If you're in school, so if we're talking about students that have to do these projects, or have to do these things. It's like, okay, can I break it down?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Can I do just a small thing? Can I just clean the sink? And then let me walk out. Just breaking it down and being able to sit with that. What is my tolerance of it? Sometimes setting of timers can be a way of doing that, because it can kind of be like, okay, like I did my 15 minutes- check.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

It wasn't too bad. It can be a practical tool about that. Affirmations- I think some people discount affirmations, but -

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I never used to be a fan. Now I am, but when I was younger, I was like, affirmations- those don't work for me. It's overly positive. But now they work. I noticehd sometimes they work.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

You know, it's because it's hard to change that core belief inside you. These are things, like messages that we think about ourselves, especially being perfectionist. We are not even aware of where these messages came from that we had to be perfect oftentimes. It's only through going through counseling or your own work that you kind of do to call it out. So it makes sense that affirmations kind of seem like, well, this is silly. Why would I keep doing that? But the idea, belief of "I have to be perfect" came from somewhere.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

It's just you weren't aware that it was being told to yo. So affirmations are one. One that I recite often and give to clients, it's to say- I am enough, just as I am. I am enough, just as I am. Put that on a post it y'all. Put it where you're brushing your teeth. Repeat it over and over. I am enough just as I am. Or if you acknowledge that your perfectionist tendencies have to do with people pleasing, it's to say that I let go of the need for other people's approval. Sometimes when you say those things, it's like, wow. I don't believe it. I do need people's input. And that's okay.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

That kind of ties into this ability to be able to sit with these uncomfortable emotions, of like, why am I procrastinating? What is it that I needed to be perfect. Sometimes when you're procrastinating, which is why often I'll say, seek the help of someone outside of you. So someone can kind of say, hey Veronica, you're procrastinating. Whether it's therapy once a week, or a friend being like, what's happening? What is it that you're scared of? Let's identify what's there. Can we make it into bite sized pieces for you?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Then the last thing that kind of may not feel like a practical tool is- at least, if you're able to- just go for a walk. Get out. Nothing- no podcast, no listening to music yall. Okay? I'm saying, leave and go get out.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm laughing because I do that.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Because you're like, I'm gonna get out there and I'm gonna- no, no, no. Don't do anything.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm trying to make my walk productive.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

I know, I know. Perfectionists out there, I see you. But to just get out- ten minutes, something. Then say, when I come back, I'm going to try. The thing is, it's a process and when we can begin to accept that this is a process. These tendencies came up with me because of my life journey and my life experiences. I may struggle with this. But just like I need to get out for walks or runs or eat healthy ish, or need a certain amount of hugs or affection. I'm not always going to be perfect at it. But if I can just acknowledge that I just sometimes need to put in a little bit more work in these areas. It can be a little bit more manageable. Instead of it always having to be perfect.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I feel like you've covered so much already, and I know you also yourself offer therapy services. Would you mind sharing some of your services? Or what kind of work you do with individuals or with couples, or even how that relates to helping them with perfectionism if that comes up.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

I work with couples. Let's backtrack. I work with individuals. I do use kind of what you think about talk therapy, but through zoom now.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Nice.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Because I'm not seeing clients in person yet. I don't know when that'll be yall, but we'll see when that day comes. Alot of the time, people don't come in because they're like, I'm a perfectionist. They come in because something happened, right? Or not- I talk about that a lot on my Instagram. It's like, you don't need to come to therapy, because something happened. You can come for community or support. That's something that also COVID really did for us, right?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

It just kind of normalized that maybe I do need community,and I need to talk to someone about some of these things when we're not able to do. Alright, so COVID, in my practice of seeing, especially first generation students or individuals, sometimes between the ages of - I'd say a client age would be 20s to 40s. Is this a thing that we no longer could do- the world shut down, so we could no longer do. So for us that were struggling with- put our worth towards what we did, we struggled in 2020, myself included. I'm not naming anyone- myself included.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

And so it was a good opportunity to slow down. For individuals, being able to kind of acknowledge that. As the world is opening up- I know that it's gonna come. I don't want to necessarily take off the spotlight from individual work of coming to talk to someone. It doesn't have to be - I always like to say, it's not actually what people maybe think it is. Like you have to have had some traumatic event, or it has to be all bad, or all tears. Sometimes it is just a very skill building- to kind of say, hey. Let me just learn these skills, and try them out, right? Something simple like, go for a walk. I've had clients that have been like, I didn't think the walk was going to be a thing. That's not very therapy- like. But I'm like, go. It's okay. It's kind of like that, where you learn small skills that can really be helpful.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Then with couples, some of the work that I see there is the expectation of mind reading comes up in couples, right?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Of like, I like things a certain way, so you should like things a certain way. I'm not calling anyone out- myself, I'm like that myself. But it's what we expect, right?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Or in couples, feeling burnt out because we're not asking for help. Because we like things to be perfect, we have this belief that we're the only ones that can do this this way. And the reality is, that's not sustainable. It's not. It doesn't mean it doesn't stop me from sometimes getting in that space- okay, calling myself out or others. But it's, how can I become aware of it, to know how is that impacting, how am I showing up in my relationship with another person, or in my work if I'm individual? You know, things like that.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Perfectionism comes up a lot, right? We do, unfortunately, live in a culture that values what we're doing, and very much, our worth can potentially feel tied to that. So mental health services- kind of like trying to pull from that a little bit, and be like, you're not just what you do. Or you're also not just one person, right? Like in terms of identity.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Sometimes- especially because I see mothers, and they're like, as a mother, I want to show up in this way. I have to be perfect in this way. And I'm like, You're not just a mother, either. That's not sustainable. That's kind of the work that I do, one on one or in couples. Then I'm also showing up on Instagram, so if anyone wants to see free tips and stuff like that, I kind of do some of that. Because I think it's good sometimes just to become aware of- where do we need additional help? That doesn't mean I have to be your therapist. It could just be like, hey, I struggle with this. Let me maybe seek out help. So just trying to share things like that, too.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

I've seen some of your posts, and they're really handy. I can certainly relate to a lot of them. Would you mind sharing what your Instagram handle is so that folks who want to add you can add you?

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yeah, it's @Dr.VeronicaEyo. Just my name. Veronica is spelled traditionally, and my last name is really - E Y O. So yeah, it's kind of my way of one, giving back. But also because yeah, we need to connect. We need to connect from social media.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

We do need to connect.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

If I can add one last little tip of also what led me into kind of putting myself out in social media land- is that COVID took away our ability to be able to interact with people. And one of the things that I would often prompt clients to do to see communities, in pages such as mine- in terms of like, oh, this is a skill that I could use. Oftentimes someone will write a comment like, oh, yeah, this is so handy. I love this right. Maybe being bold and sometimes pushing that reply button, and be like - me, too. And developing community.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

I know that that's not perfect, you guys. But that's what we had to do during COVID times. And it really has- of the client that I've kind of- doesn't have to be only my page. There's a lot of pages out there, y'all, that kind of have similar things. It's an ability to acknowledge that other people are also struggling in some of these things, too. It can help to kind of build community and acknowledge that you're not the only one, and maybe make it feel a little bit less scary or tough to kind of handle those things. So just wanting to share that piece, too.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know, thank you so much for saying that. I mean, I host this podcast, and people come to me for advice all the time. And I still struggle. I still struggle with reaching out. I still struggle with hitting that reply button. There's still that introverted part of me that's like, I don't want to. It's too much, it's overwhelming. But it's actually a good reminder because for some, sometimes people stray away from social media, myself included, because it can feel like too much or toxic in some ways.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But there's also ways- I'm learning, just from you and others who are on social media providing really great content, that it is a community building tool, if you implement it in that way, if you curate it in such a way. I think that's really helpful. We wouldn't be having this conversation if you hadn't hit that button, if you hadn't sent me a message.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So that's great. I want to thank you so much for your time. I definitely, I gained a lot personally from just hearing you speak. I'm sure my listeners will as well. And, again, everybody follow her on IG so that we can all keep learning.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Thank you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Maybe some of them will reach out to you and want to work with you.

Dr. Veronica Eyo

Yes, thank you. Thank you. Definitely we got to keep fighting on, on this grad school and for after life because it's work. I'm glad that we've been able to connect.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes, thank you.