64: Being a PhD Mom, Autism, and Studying What You’re Living with Fernanda Castellón

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome everyone. I am again excited to have another awesome speaker. Today we're gonna have someone who's going to talk to us on the topic of being a PhD mom, on autism and on studying what you're living. Our guest is Fernanda Castellon.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

She is a current graduate student at the University of California, Los Angeles and is pursuing a PhD in education. She completed her BA at the University of California, Santa Barbara- that's how we know each other- in psychology and Chicana and Chicano studies.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Fernanda is interested in researching how culture and autism intersect, and consequently impact family dynamics, schooling and access to care. Fernanda's passions stem from her own experience as a sibling of an autistic adult. As a native Spanish speaker, Fernanda advocates and promotes for the implementation of cultural adaptations to recruitment and intervention protocols in order to promote the recruitment and retention of ethnic and racial minority populations. Welcome, Fernanda.

Fernanda Castellon

Hi, so happy to be here. I'm excited.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm going to start with just a question- I usually start folks with a basic question about if you can share more about yourself, who you are, your background, your research interests, and essentially, what led you to pursuing grad school in your current department at UCLA?

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. Like Yvette said, my name is Fernanda Castellon. I always like to say I'm the middle child of six. That's definitely shaped the way I go about things. I'm always running around. I'm a first generation immigrant. I was born in Puerto Vallarta, Jalisco and my family moved to the United States due to a lack of services for my autistic brother. I moved when I was nine, and he was seven. He's now 23, and I'm 25.

Fernanda Castellon

It's really shaped the way that I look at research, my research interests and the way that I approach community based, participatory work. Like Yvette was saying, my research interests revolve around all things autism and culture. At the end of the day, I want my research to empower individuals to achieve the best quality of life that is possible. I honestly feel there's a big shift in the way that we're doing autism research, and the way that we even frame what autism is. So I'm excited for that. I think that a lot of change is coming and I want to be on the right side of that change.

Fernanda Castellon

The way that I went into grad school- I always knew, my parents never hid it from us that my brother was different or that he had a disability from a young age. My mom always tells me that when I was little, I would walk around and people would ask me, what do want to be when you're older. I'd be like, I want to be a pediatrician specialist for kids with autism. And they'd be like, woah, that's a lot. Imagine a five year old saying that. Like wait, why do you even know what that is?

Fernanda Castellon

And reflecting back -yes, I am going to be a doctor and my specialty is going to be special education, disability studies with an emphasis in autism. So it's just crazy how at a very young age, I was manifesting what I'm doing now in a way. And I love my work. Right now, I'm in the development of an interview protocol for interviewing bilingual parents of children with ASD and just trying to see if bilingualism was promoted, if they had access to those services, and if it's shaped their family dynamics.

Fernanda Castellon

I just had a focus group last week with moms trying to validate the questions I'm asking. And I'm reminded, I love what I'm doing, because they were so open to sharing. They're like, these are awesome questions and sharing their experiences at the same time, even though I didn't ask them to answer the questions themselves. But they were just so eager to share. I just love qualitative work because of that.

Fernanda Castellon

But then again, for my Master's thesis, I did a quantitative paper on looking at the rates of English Proficiency among children who are both EL students and have ASD. That work is also really passionate to me, because it showed that kids who have that double identification are not likely to become English proficient and are not likely to be included in general education settings. So I'm really into both types of methodologies. But again, it's like what approaches are we doing or what are we doing so that individuals have the best access to quality services and preparing them to have the best quality of life?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know, it's interesting, because when I met you, you weren't a mom yet. And now you're in grad school and you're a mom, and you're interviewing moms. I know you've had a caregiving role for a long time, but I'm just curious- I wanted you to talk about your transition to motherhood, and how you've been navigating raising a baby while being in grad school. But then also based on what you shared right now, I'm thinking about- how has your experience becoming a mom also shed light on your research, because you are interviewing moms yourself?

Fernanda Castellon

I think being a mom has made me realize how much parents are willing to do for their kids. Especially- just thinking about another research interest of mine is immigrant parents of children with ASD. Looking at that immigrant experience is really making it clear how much parents are willing to do everything and anything for their kids, including moving to a country. That really sits with me and it's really impactful. And I think to other people, it's not. So I think maybe as a mom, it really takes my breath away.

Fernanda Castellon

One of my upcoming projects is going to be interviewing parents who crossed the border, from TJ to San Diego, to bring their kids to special ed. Again, it's documenting that parents are willing to do whatever. So thinking about that, like parents are willing to get up at three in the morning, wake up their kids by four or five to get to the border, to get to school by seven, and they go to a full time job. And then do it all over again the next day.

Fernanda Castellon

It makes me appreciate. I always try to validate parents. Even if you didn't have the right resources- because a lot of the moms that I've interviewed so far are older. Their kids are adults. They're in their mid 20s, early 30s. By now they're identified as also having an intellectual disability. They're like, but if my son had had all the services at a younger age, the possibilities would have been endless. It's like, you did what you could, right.

Fernanda Castellon

So it's validating that they did what was available to them at the time. Also you're doing everything you can for them now. And I think that part of that is also letting them know that their kids are adults, and that they're capable of being independent.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Right.

Fernanda Castellon

I think that side is a lot of tension, because also as parents who want to protect. It's also assume competence, assume that they're able to do things.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

I think now that I'm a parent, I'm able to explain to parents about assuming competence a little bit more. And I think sometimes that makes parents a little bit uncomfortable, because they're so used to doing everything.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Can you talk a little bit more about that, about this idea of assume competence? Because a lot of the listeners may not be aware, may not know much about autism, the autistic community, and also the assumed incompetence, and a lot of the deficit based kind of ideas that get passed around.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. So with autism, obviously, even itself- ASD, it's autism spectrum disorders. Just the word "disorders," like something's wrong. Right away, it's like, oh, the child's not able to do things. Their child, one- could not be able to communicate, focus, speak. Not able to make friends because of their autism. So a lot of the times we use intervention to address those lack of abilities, but at the same time, we're using a hegemonic, normative idea of what friendships look like, of what communication looks like.

Fernanda Castellon

So assuming competence would be like- no, your child can make friends.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

But maybe they need a little bit more suppor finding common interests. Maybe we need to read a story before. How do we ask someone to play with us? And then we are giving them the tools so that they're able to go out and have an idea of what making a friend might look like. They're able to have those supports that we established in the playground by themselves an hour. The more we expose them, the more we go through that experience with them, they'll be able to make friends more and more. That's just a small example.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

But yeah, assume competence is like assume that your child can and will do it. Maybe they'll need more supports, and they'll need more supports learning and even achieving- and supports can be prompts. Supports can be visual schedules. And we all use supports.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes. Well, that's the thing. Autism is a spectrum. It's not just like hi- low. It's like a whole ... And probably all of us are in some sort of... We all have different strengths and challenges.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I feel like that all the time, because my child is autistic himself too. He's got these strengths that I'm like, I don't even have that. And there's some things that I'm like, yeah, I need help with regulating myself and my schedule and all that. So all the things that help him actually help me too.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. But at the same time, even autistic individuals and self-advocates emphasize that autism is a disability. Even with- like I was saying, there's a big change with the way that we are framing autism. That's being pushed forward by the neurodiversity community, neuro diverse community. Even then, they're like, yes. Even though I don't need a lot of supports, autism is a disability. It affects the way that I interact with my every day, with the way that I interact with individuals, the way that I experience the world.

Fernanda Castellon

So at the end of the day, we do want to recognize that autism is a disability.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

We need to- not only like how we say autism awareness. No, it's autism acceptance.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

It's recognizing that this is just part of our diverse community. And that if they need supports, that should be enough to be able to grant these individuals the support that they need. If I told you, can you set up an alarm for me to wake up tomorrow? You're not going to ask me a question. But an individual asking you for a more, not typical type of support. It's like, well, why do you need that?

Fernanda Castellon

We have a very hegemonic idea of what supports look like, because they help us engage with the world in a certain way. But the supports that autistic individuals need are not what we're used to. So that's what makes us hold back, I guess, or push back. But I think that's changing, especially now with working remotely. A lot of people are happy about that. Like conferences, you were able to attend them remotely.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I think about that all the time.

Fernanda Castellon

But they've been denying- they've denied that for years. It's such a toxic system.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah, and I was saying- with the disability community, even myself with having a chronic illness. I'm like, there was so much pushback before for working from home, of like - I don't believe in working from home.

Fernanda Castellon

You're not going to do anything.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It's been over a year later, and everybody's been working from home. The disability community has been fighting for this for so long, and now all of a sudden, everybody's doing it. It just proved how ableist society is.

Fernanda Castellon

Hell yeah. I think there's change coming and it's in the right direction. But I think to get back to your question about how is it transitioning to motherhood - when I transitioned. I gave birth 2019 December. So Coronavirus was in China, and we didn't even think of it.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I know. Oh my gosh, it was December 2019. I thought it was earlier.

Fernanda Castellon

No, it was December. I gave birth December 17th.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, okay. December 17. Okay. Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, December 17th 2019. Then, when we went into lockdown, my daughter was three months old.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Wow.

Fernanda Castellon

But even like- you know the Mexican culture is like, cuarentena. You don't leave your house for 40 days.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

So I guess I was doing that, but more because we were scared of what was going on out in the world. I guess my introduction to motherhood wasn't what was normal or expected. But at the same time, I was like, okay well. This is perfect, because then I just get to bond with my baby. But then I also was struggling with my identity as a student. It was like, all my cohort is submitting their second year projects, and I haven't even started.

Fernanda Castellon

I had a lot of that guilt, that's like- I'm falling behind, I'm falling behind. So I was very ambitious of trying to get back. I remember, my baby would fall asleep on my chest, and I'd be reading. But then, I had a fog over my head.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

And I'd have to reread everything. Whenever I would write, I was like, I can't form a coherent thought. It was just really tough, and I was hard on myself. I was not recognizing that my whole body was going through a change themselves, and I was trying to just stick to the way things used to be. It's like no, I have to find new ways to get things done and recognize that what's worked before might not work this time. And that's okay.

Fernanda Castellon

Now I'm able to say that, but before I'd be like no. I was so type A, like I need a schedule and the baby needs to sleep from eight to nine. And if they don't, that just messes up my whole day. It's been a big transition that way, because I was so time oriented. And it worked great in undergrad. It worked great my first year of grad school. But when I wasn't in control of my time anymore, I think that was the hardest thing to accept.

Fernanda Castellon

Now I'm able to be like, okay. I didn't read, that's fine. Before I'd be like no, I have a deadline. And now I'm like, I wasn't able to meet your deadline. Let's push it back. I'm like, okay. It's just being honest about what I could take on. I think I was taking on way too much in the beginning. Now I'm at a way better place and I'm able to take more on.

Fernanda Castellon

And she's older. In the beginning, I was breastfeeding and she wouldn't take a bottle. So if I wasn't home, I would just think, she's not eating. And I wouldn't even be able to focus because I knew that. I knew- I'm not home. She's not eating. Is she okay? And then when I was able to go back to classes, and I would be like, I want her to eat so I'm not gonna go to my office to take my class. I'll stay home. I would hear her crying in the next room, and be like no-what's going on? I remember thinking, I can't win. So definitely, it was a very clear distinction between breastfeeding and not breastfeeding anymore. Because when I stopped- when she was one and two weeks- I felt the fog melt, like I could think again.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm not there yet. I'm looking forward to that.

Fernanda Castellon

I talked to a mentor from LMU. She was like, right? Like, your brain just works again. I was like, yes. It just started- I was like, I can synthesize. I can write. I can read a paper once. I think back- it just proved to me how much energy your body puts into feeding another human.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

And then it shows you how much more support we deserve as breastfeeding moms- as just parenting students in general.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

One of the things you mentioned earlier, along with the postpartum fog is just right away, wanting to get back to work. A lot of us are pressured to do that, especially as academic moms, especially if you're in grad school. And it takes at least a year for your body to fully recover. That's not including the whole process of breastfeeding. Like you said, that postpartum brain fog is so real. I mean, all the time I forget words, like basic words. I'm like, what is that word that means X, Y, and Z? Then they're just like, you mean this? I'm like, oh yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

Even where things are. Or like- wait, why did I come in this room?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Exactly. And then you also mentioned the whole scheduling and being type A. And I'm wondering- going back to this idea of your transition to motherhood, how it's maybe affected you or changed you. I'm going through that brain fog right now. But it's just like, at least in my experience, everything that you've said, it rings true with every single PhD mom that I've met. It's that conflict of like, you're never going to be a perfect parent. You're never going to be a perfect academic.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

When you're spending time with one, you're not spending time with the other.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You can't do anything perfectly, but that for me at least, it's helped me to be less perfectionistic, to be less type A, to be okay with where I'm at, to advocate for myself, to advocate for my child. So I have to advocate for myself in order to advocate for my child.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I don't think I know of a single PhD mom who graduated at the same time as other people in their cohort. That's why there are policies to allow you to take at least an extra year. So I always wonder about that, because I think people get really nervous. They're like, should I, shouldn't I? They ask me, should I have a baby? And I'm like, that's you.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If you feel ready, you do it. Don't allow anybody else to make that decision for you. Don't let an institution do it, a school do it, whatever it is do it for you. Now that you're a mom, if you can go back and say just how that experience has shed light into even what you're studying. I also wanted you to talk a little bit more about how what you study is so close to you and so close to your lived experience and to your identity. And now that your identity has shifted a lot- I mean, when you become a mom, it's just- for me, it was a huge identity shift.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm not sure if that's true for you, but it really informed my research as well. So I'm just curious, what are some of the things that you noticed from before and now, in terms of your research?

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. It's interesting, because I remember even when I was an undergrad, and I would see Maddie or whatever grad mentors, and how she was a mom in her program. Like, how did you do it? I remember, I would try to pick her brain, because I knew I wanted to be a mom at a pretty young age. So I'd always think, maybe grad school will be the right time, because you can make your own time.

Fernanda Castellon

But even then, at the end funding is a really big part of grad school. Some people are able to take a full, real maternity leave and not think about anything. But for me, it was like if I took time off and wasn't enrolled, I would lose my funding. So I had to still be enrolled and still meet deadlines and things so that I would have a way to live, because I'm the primary provider in my family. And I remember when I even brought up the idea of taking a maternity leave, there were professors who chuckled at that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, same.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. They're like, no. It was just like -okay, well, you say you support students. But the real support is- what I really need is financial support. Can you do that? Now you're quiet- but bring your baby. Okay, well, are you gonna watch my baby while I'm trying to do work? Of course not.

Fernanda Castellon

It's definitely tough. But also, like you're saying, it's informed my research and knowing that I have- well right now, the way that things are going is like, I have a neurotypical child. But what if she were neurodiverse? How would that affect my family dynamic? How would that affect my marriage? How would that affect my internal and external family relations?

Fernanda Castellon

It just really sheds light on - even having, for example, a child with another developmental disability, like Down Syndrome. That changes the way you feed them. It changes the way they walk/ It changes language development. So what supports are we giving these parents?

Fernanda Castellon

I think for me- also because I am a mom, and because my brother is autistic, it's like, what supports can we give to give the best access? At the end of the day, my advisor always asks me, what do you want your research to be about? I'm like, well I don't know. I just want to help families achieve the best life that they can. So I'm always stuck with that.

Fernanda Castellon

But at the end of the day, we do a lot of different things here in the lab. We do a lot of intervention work with little kids. They're usually as young as eighteen months, and it's a lot of ABA kind of based work. But it's also play based too, which I really like. We're just playing with the individual, and targeting certain things that will allow for more language development, for more play development.

Fernanda Castellon

And also, there's a parent component to it. It's empowering the parent to know how to play with their kid, because a lot of times, it's like, well, what do I do? Or even culturally, it's not really common to see mom and dad get on the floor with their kid and start playing with the dolls. It's like, kids do that with themselves. We're not involved.

Fernanda Castellon

No. You are able to shape a child in that manner. You're able to empower them with skills that will translate so when they do go into school, like how to make friends, how to play with other kids. But even then, in those meetings, in those conversations, there's barriers that we talk about. We're like, this family can't drive here so we're not going to enroll them.

Fernanda Castellon

That could have been my mom. That was probably my mom and why she never did research. My mom is kind of starting to develop a hoarding habit of papers. So I've found recruitment flyers from UCSD- because my family is centered in San Diego- to my mom. I'm like, why didn't you ever do this? She's like, well I don't drive on the freeway.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Wow. Yeah, so many barriers.

Fernanda Castellon

So when we talk about those things, when we talk about actual barriers and family issues - even when we're doing recruitment. It's like, who are we trying to recruit? Because this needs to be translated. And this needs to be at a fifth grade reading level. And are we going to make it accessible? Are we going to go to the homes? Do they need to pay for parking?

Fernanda Castellon

The accessibility components of research make me really reflect on my own family and the things we've been through, and I don't think a lot of my cohort mates or my lab mates really think about that, because it's just work for them. They can come to work and they don't have to think about autism until the next day they come back.

Fernanda Castellon

But for me, it's like, no. I leave and I call my mom and she'll share with me, like maybe my brother had a hard day. And she'll ask me, well what can I do? And it's like, okay, here I am reading research articles, trying to find strategies to tell my mom what to do. I don't know. It's tough sometimes, especially when we see deficit-based thinking. Like, sorry, there's nothing we can do.

Fernanda Castellon

That could have been my mom and I have no answers. So then why did we move to this country, if there's no answers for it, if you're just going to say no? It's tough sometimes, because I do take it personal. But then it's also on me, like my mental health. Like okay, we couldn't recruit this family this time. But now that I'm doing my own research, I'm making sure that I'm targeting the families that could probably not come to UCLA.

Fernanda Castellon

And even the work that I'm doing- for my qualifying exams, I'm analyzing different all toddler intervention papers, and seeing if they recruited families who are non- English speaking. It's also calling out researchers- why are you excluding families that don't speak English? Are you only going to apply your intervention with English speaking families?

Fernanda Castellon

Because that's who you're tailoring the intervention for. And that's not fair. That's only a third of the children in this country now. And literally, I'm even coding to see if their limitations was that they didn't include diverse speakers, and some don't even bring it up. But then the rebuttal is like, well that wasn't our population that we were targeting. I'm like, okay then- you're only looking to work with the kids who can come to the labs.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know, everything that you're mentioning right now, just serves as another reminder of why, at least within the mainstream information about autism and autistic studies- or studies on autistic individuals- it's very white. You don't see a lot of studies on POC. But also what I'm hearing from you is that as you've been one, doing your research, then transitioning to your own experience of motherhood, and then continuing to do your work, it really is reinforcing your priorities. You're like, okay, this is why I'm here.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But also, it's like you're willing to do the work of advocating so that you make sure that people are becoming more culturally aware. It's ironic too. You're trying to make sure that this work is accessible, when what you're talking about is providing services to folks who need resources. So resources and accessibility should go hand in hand, shouldn't it?

Fernanda Castellon

Yes.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But then also, at the same time, I can imagine that's a burden. That's an added load on your hands. That's like an extra mental load of constantly having to push back, constantly having to advocate, constantly having to be the squeaky wheel. Then on top of that you have your own family to worry about, and you have your own mom and your own brother.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And you probably have added service requests, because I don't think there are a lot of people who speak Spanish in your department. I don't think so. Or at least last time we checked in, I don't remember that being true.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So what are you doing also to take care of yourself or to make sure that you're surviving, that you're thriving? One of the questions that someone asked on IG, because I know some folks wanted to hear about what it's like being a parent in grad school, they're like, how do you succeed? How do you excel? How do you thrive? There's a part of me that wants to kind of laugh at that, because I'm like wait until you're a parent. You know what I mean?

Fernanda Castellon

You're like, what is sleep? Coffee here, please.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Exactly.

Fernanda Castellon

I don't even want to drink it. Just give me the caffeine. Yeah. I mean, it is extra work. Because obviously, when I say- are we gonna translate these? They're like, well yeah, translate it. I'm like, okay, I have to translate it. And I have to find volunteers a lot of the time to support us to do forward and backward translation. So it is extra work.

Fernanda Castellon

But I mean, I find it worth it when we are able to recruit a family. And even like with the focus group that I did last week, when parents are so thankful. And it's like, you're thankful to me, but I'm sorry this hasn't been done before. I'm sorry that I had to be the first one but I'm happy to. And I always daydream, like when I have my lab I'm gonna do this, when I have my own projects.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You're not daydreaming, you're manifesting.

Fernanda Castellon

Yes. Literally, me imagino my lab. I want no computer chairs. I want a couch. I want papel picado on the walls. I want music. Se me pone la piel chinita just thinking about it. So it reminds me- I love research. And before I'd be like, I want to teach. I want to be at a CSU. Now I'm like, maybe I do want to be at an R1, so I can research and I can do those things. I don't know. I'm having the shift. But it's also thinking about being a mom. It's like, will it work? Will I have the schedule? Will I have the time?

Fernanda Castellon

I think the best advice that I've taken and that I've read from some people is that treating your PhD like a job, and really having clear boundaries, but also being realistic about the deadlines you have. So it's like, sometimes you go to sleep late, you have to go to sleep late. But then also, it's like, I don't work at night. 8pm, I'm done. I'm not. I know I have work, and I'll always have work. I always have work.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yup.

Fernanda Castellon

It's just about choosing. You just choose when you do it. So then that's when I guess it's like a job. Me and my partner, my husband, on Sunday nights we sit down, like what do you have to do this week? And it's like, okay, I'm going to the lab this day. And it's like, well, I have something at two. Can you come back to watch Sofia? Because we can't afford daycare. So we just make it work that way. I'm like- okay, maybe I'll have a short day and then I'll compensate those hours. I'll compensate those hours in another way. So definitely make it work that way. I lost my train of thought, sorry.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It's okay. You were just saying having clear boundaries, checking in with your husband. Which is funny, because that's a whole other episode topic, about having partners and how to navigate that.

Fernanda Castellon

For sure.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I was like, oh, you have one of those meetings? I have meetings-check in meetings- with my husband all the time too. Same. We have the baby here. I've got my kid homeschooling. I've got my baby. I'm in the other room.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Anytime I have a meeting- like right now- I tell him. I'm like, hey, just a heads up. I have a meeting. So that way, if the baby is yelling, crying, that way, he can take a walk with her outside, just something to calm her down.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, and it's being real. Literally, we have a Google Calendar and we have a week calendar right next to the door. It's like, well, you didn't tell me. It's on there. It's on the calendar. If you check your phone, it's there.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yup, same.

Fernanda Castellon

We give each other grace, but also things have to get done. And he just got a new a job. So it's also supporting each other in our dreams, but then also trying to do the best to make it work. I think another piece of advice would be, it's not about work- life balance. It's about harmony.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

Harmony in your life. I got this from Dra. Maricela Becerra, who is on Instagram as @academicmami. She always talks about this. Sometimes work comes first. Sometimes family comes first. And I'm like, I need to glue this wherever I can see it to remind me, because I do feel mom guilt. Sometimes, like this morning, I saw my daughter for thirty minutes, and I'm just gonna put her to sleep tonight. And that's all I got to see her today because I have a lot of work.

Fernanda Castellon

But it's also like my work brings me joy. Even she talks about mom joy.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

I love the work that I do, and it makes me happy. Even when I'm writing, I just go- like how people get runner's high, I get writer's high. I just write so fast. I get emotional about the things that I write about, or the things that I'm studying or reading a paper. So it's also that I want her to be able to see that her mom had a dream and she went for it. Yeah, I wish I was there more. But I know that I have the right to follow my dreams too, and work for what I want.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

That brings me mom joy, just thinking about the antithesis of mom guilt. Why should we feel mom guilt? Why should I feel guilty for going to school, you know? It is tough, but I think when you treat your PhD like a job and you have those clear boundaries, and you give yourself grace- and there's no right time to have a baby. If you and your partner feel that you're ready to have a baby in grad school, after grad school, there's always going to be things you want to do.

Fernanda Castellon

It's like, oh, I'll have a baby once I graduate. Or I'll have a baby once I secure my job, or I'll have a baby once I have tenure. There's always gonna be an if, but, when.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

And you just adjust. It's a learning curve. At first, it's super tough because like you were saying, it's an identity shift. You're letting go of a lot of the things you were able to do before, but you're also gaining a lot of things and I think that's the sad part that people don't talk about- what you gain from being a parent.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

It's gonna sound super cheesy. I never knew I could love something so much.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm laughing because it's cheesy but true.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. I hold my daughter sometimes- when I'm like, I'm at school all day and I just want to smell her. I'm literally running up the stairs to make sure I can put her to sleep. And I just hold her, going back and forth in the rocking chair. I just hug her and it takes my breath away, how much I love this little person. I'm getting emotional. A lot of people don't talk about that. They're like, get ready to not sleep. And it's like, why are you so annoying? Like, no. Even when I would do her laundry, I'm like, it smells like her. It's the hardest and most beautiful thing you will ever do, to be a parent.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yup. For me, with having a baby the second time around, I've experienced so much joy this time around. It just puts everything into perspective. At the end of the day, if there's something that's going on at work, I'm like it's okay. That can wait. I've got this time with my daughter.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And it's really given me that that silver lining of like, yeah, the pandemic was completely awful. But then in other ways, it was a silver lining. In other ways, it allowed me time to spend more time with my daughter.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, same here.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And same with you. You mentioned the harmonizing earlier. I use that term harmony as well, or sometimes I'll say I like to just kind of ride the waves. There's that wave of like, okay, things are gonna get busy and intense at work. And I'm not going to be able to hang out with my daughter as much. But then there are going to be lulls, and that's when I can spend more time with her.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Then there are times that they conflict and you have to just kind of reprioritize. I feel like I've learned so many skills just from being a mom.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I am way more organized. I am way more efficient with my time. You mentioned Maddie earlier- she's one of the grad mentor, or was because she graduated, and now is off doing amazing things and has a great job and everything. But she was just so great and efficient, and just on top of things. So people are always surprised. They they have these misconceptions. I've had people doubt me because of finding out that I'm a mom. I'm the opposite. Actually, I'm like, if this person's a parent, they probably know how to do a bunch of things.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. I can trust them.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

For sure. Yeah, I've had that. You don't get offered some things to be on certain projects, because it's like oh, she's not gonna have time. She's not gonna be able to do it. It's discouraging, but it's also like, watch me.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes, exactly.

Fernanda Castellon

Just wait. I have that attitude, and I just applied for two grants, and I got them. Now I got to do it. Because I did it out of spite a little bit. But I'm like, okay, well, motivation. Here we go.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I mean, I got the most fellowships out of anyone in my department right out of being weeks postpartum. I had just had a baby, and then I applied to a bunch of fellowships. And I got the most out of anybody in my department. If I was questioned because- I took a year or two more than everybody else in my cohort to graduate. So people did have their doubts, and I definitely proved them wrong.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So being a mom for me has been very empowering, and I've noticed that has been true for a lot of us. We're actually getting ready to, or we should get ready to wrap up. And I am kind of wondering what else you might want to share to anyone about everything when it comes to being first gen, being a first time mom, being a grad student. You're in- what year are you in right now?

Fernanda Castellon

I'm ending my third. Isn't that crazy?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh my gosh. Okay, so you're right in the middle of it, in the thick of it.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah. And like you're saying- my cohort, they all did their qualifying exams, and I pushed it. And that was fine.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I did too.

Fernanda Castellon

At first it was like I kind of felt guilty about it. But now I'm like, I'm so happy I did. Like, you don't approve? Okay, I'm doing it. And like you're saying, you have fellowships. So I think being a grad student and having funding, my own funding and fellowships has allowed me to be like, well, this is my own timeline.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

If you don't approve it, that's you. Tu pedo, my family would say.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I actually read up the policy when I was a grad student just to make sure. That way, whenever I say something, I could back it up with a policy, and be like- oh, you want to take away my funding? You want to kick me out? Because I heard these horror stories of other parents who had had these threats made to them. That way I could always have my rebuttal and be like, oh, you want to do that? Well, here it is in the policy.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

To this day, I still do that. If anything comes up, I back it up with data, policy, information.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, you have to.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Folks- you never know how many people are gonna discriminate against you. I've even had folks who consider themselves allies, folks who themselves self identify as either parents or as women of color, or as first gen, who have given me pushback for being a parent. And it's sucks, but you got to do what you got to do. That's why you are that much more empowered now, because you're learning all of these skills along the way.

Fernanda Castellon

I think advice that I would give a first gen, because I think that's very distinct- my process through grad school as a first gen. First year, I was just first gen. It was navigating the hidden curriculum of academia. The standard of work from undergrad to grad school, obviously, is very different. The way classes are set up is very different. It's more of like, you read a paper and you just discuss it.

Fernanda Castellon

For me, it was really hard for me to read really stoic papers. It's like, this is so dry. I can't even understand it. So the first thing I did- it was based off advice from you. I set up reading groups with my friends. I found friends, and we were like, okay, which article do you want to read this week? We would all write a summary, and we'd have those notes when we would have class.

Fernanda Castellon

That was really helpful, especially with saving time. It was really helpful. And I think even going back to finding your friends, finding people that you connect with, and being able to tell who is being fake in a way- like people who are just being nice. And reading the microaggressions, reading the room.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Figuring out who you can and can't trust.

Fernanda Castellon

Exactly.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It reminds me of that conversation that I had with Sirenia about ethical chisme.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It's like, who can you trust? Who can't you trust? And then just building community around the folks you can trust.

Fernanda Castellon

You were saying- you get a feeling. I feel a vibe. People give you vibes. Their auras, they vibrate differently. You can feel when someone's being genuine.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

Or when someone just wants to know, like, well, what funding did you get? It's like, why do you care?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Okay, that's a little bit invasive.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, exactly. So it's like, being - even being selfish with your time and energy. That's an advice I would give.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I would say being intentional with your time.

Fernanda Castellon

Yes, even that. Exactly. For the people that you do identify as people who are gonna support you, set up- like we were saying, reading groups, writing groups, homework time groups. I remember with Patricia Martin, we would set up a one hour at one time at the library to just do work.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

We would go to the library, and just us four- because we took qualitative studies together- we would just go in there and work on our stuff before we had class or something. And it was just nice to be working with people, even if we're just quiet. I think I missed that a lot from undergrad, because I had a lot of friends to study with. I think in grad school, it's a lot more everyone's doing their own thing. So it's a lot harder to make friends, a lot harder to hang out. And even as a mom, now it's even harder.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh my gosh, talk to me about that. About that friendship struggle when you become a mom.

Fernanda Castellon

Oh, yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm lucky if I even get to see my friends once a year in person.

Fernanda Castellon

Exactly. Or even talking to them, or even have anything in common. It's like, how do you not let that get to you. I think in the beginning, that was hard for me too. Because it's like, all my friends are mid 20s still. They're all partying, and it's like, well, I'm gonna go pump.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That hasn't changed. I'm laughing, because I'm in my early 30s and I still have that struggle of my childfree friends going out and drinking.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And I'm like, I also need to pump. I'm probably going to pump after this.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, it's hard. Thinking about- now as a parenting student, I think I did a lot of research. When I was in the fall of 2019, when I was getting into labor and things like that, I remember I did check out. Like, okay, where are the closest pumping rooms for me? Where am I going to pump when i come back? I need disability services in order to be able to leave the room every three hours, and not have a professor call me out or get mad at me.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Because they will.

Fernanda Castellon

Exactly. I'm like, I have this accommodation. If something were to come up with my daughter and I needed to leave, or if I coudn't turn in an assignment, I wanted to make sure- like how you were saying- I'll have a policy behind me.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

I have support in order to make sure that I'm not discriminated against because I'm a parent, because I have another barrier. So I made sure I had that. I was registered with disability services. I did my research. Like okay, where's the closest pump room? Where am I going to keep my milk? Do I have all the parts? All the prep that I did before. I bought a pumping backpack that had a computer sleeve. So how did I prep myself to think- I'm going to come back, and how am I going to make things work? I got on the UCLA waitlist for daycare. I'm still on that waitlist. She's one and a half. It's never gonna happen.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm telling you, it took my son two, two and a half years for him to get off that list.

Fernanda Castellon

And even then, it's so expensive.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

Even if we get on, am I going to pay for it? I don't know. She's in early headstart, home based. So when she turns two, she can go to center based, and it's free. It's eight to three. It's a little further, but it's free.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And unfortunately, that's a whole problem.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Not just in the university level, but on a national level- the problem of childcare here. Childcare should be a right. Everybody should have access to it. It shouldn't be just those who have that kind of class privilege.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, for sure. I think those would definitely be advice that I would give my parenting friends. As much as you can, set up your environment for success. But then at the same time, know that success might look different. Right? Even the days where I didn't get that much work done, because I had to pump every three hours for 30 minutes at a time. And people would give me stares, like, oh, she's gonna get up again. It's like, no, but I pumped 50 ounces. Wow. If you told that to a mom, they'd be like, oh, my gosh. That's amazing.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That is amazing, actually.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, like wow, you know?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm an oversupplier, and I think that's amazing.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, there were days where I was pumping 60 ounces.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's incredible.

Fernanda Castellon

Because I was such an over supplier.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

Because I was so on it.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Me too.

Fernanda Castellon

I was like, she needs to eat. I can't lose my supply.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's a whole other stressor, too.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah, exactly. But if you were to tell that to a mom who's not a student, she'd be like, oh, my God, you're doing amazing. But you're looking at yourself from a student perspective.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

It's like, but I didn't get to work. You're measuring your successes in different metrics. But success is going to look very different now. Now you're a mom and a student. So what does that look like? It is your own timeline.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

Give yourself grace. Harmony over work- there's no such thing as balance.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yup.

Fernanda Castellon

And feeding yourself, too. I like to put it this way. I saw a tweet. I forgot who it was from, but it was like, would you go six hours without feeding your baby? Would you go six hours without giving your baby water? Or changing their diaper? Or would you go a week without doing their laundry? No, of course not. But why would you do that to yourself?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yup.

Fernanda Castellon

Why do you go hours without eating? Why do you go hours without going outside and taking a walk? We are so quick to put ourselves second. But it's like- no, in order for my baby to thrive, I have to thrive.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's true, so true.

Fernanda Castellon

So it's like, how are you prioritizing yourself, right? That might look different every time, and it might change. You might not be able to - it might give you anxiety to think of self care. It's like, no, my time is for this. No, I can't. Like you cognitively can't make those distinctions. But even just reading those words, I think might start to cause a change in your mindset. And then later you can be like, you know what? My self care act of the day was this. Even as little as - I filed my nails. Or I drank two of my water bottles today. Like, wow. You know, little wins.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah.

Fernanda Castellon

Celebrate the little wins. Like, I'm going to meal prep to make sure I have three meals tomorrow.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes.

Fernanda Castellon

Because if not, I'll just have one and a protein shake. I think thinking of how much we care for our children- but do I care for myself in the same way? I don't know. It's just something that- if you would have told me that when I was three months post-partum, I'd be like, who do you think you are trying to tell me how to live my life? But now it's like no, it's true.

Fernanda Castellon

It's a lot of that hormonal change and that identity shift- your world is changing. You're riding the wave, like how you were saying. It's just knowing that it's gonna get better, no matter what, because your baby is growing. They don't need you as much. But I'm sure there's going to be- in other ways they need you, right? I'm sure, now that Emi is in school, he needs you in other ways. Ely needs you in different ways.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yup, that's right.

Fernanda Castellon

I mean, it's always changing.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Thank you so much for those words. I feel like you're preaching to me, because I'm like, I've got a seven month old. I should go outside more. Okay, last thing before you go- I know we're a little over time.

Fernanda Castellon

No, you're fine. This is self care.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If folks wanted to reach you- they're like, oh my gosh. Fernanda was amazing. I'd love to be in touch, or something that she said rings true to me or whatnot. How can they reach you?

Fernanda Castellon

Now I'm thinking to Sirenia's episode. I've needed someone to force me to make an academic Twitter and I think this is it. So I will share with you my academic Twitter once I make it.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Okay.

Fernanda Castellon

But my Instagram is - I always forget my username. It's @Feeer_Castellon. But you can always send me an email too. I think I'm way more responsive on email, which is FernandaCastell@g.ucla.edu. I love- and I think it stems from you too, how much you love working with undergrads and how you've been such a great mentor to us, that I love mentoring.

Fernanda Castellon

So if you're an undergrad who is thinking of coming to UCLA, if you have a sibling, if you are thinking of grad school and ASD, or anything, shoot me an email. I'm more than happy to. We always need volunteers here at the lab, especially Spanish speaking. So if you're interested, shoot me an email. We'll set something up. But yeah, if anything resonated to you- if you're just gonna edit all this out, that's okay, because this is self-care.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm not editing any of this out. I'm a mom. I don't have time.

Fernanda Castellon

The truth.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Someone was asking me- actually, I went to this UCLA alumni networking thing. They invited me and someone was like, oh, I know you do a podcast. They're like, it's so much work, all the editing. I keep wanting to be perfect. And I told them, if I worried about being perfect, if I worried about editing, if I worried about having the right equipment, I wouldn't be doing this.

Fernanda Castellon

Yup.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

For me, the priority is getting the message out there.

Fernanda Castellon

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It might not be perfect. It might not sound great. It's not the greatest quality, but it doesn't matter because folks are listening anyway. And so yeah, we'll keep this in. Thank you so much Fernanda.

Fernanda Castellon

No, thank you. This was nice.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It's been so awesome.

Fernanda Castellon

I know. Bye.