62: Ethical Chisme and Harsh Realities of Grad School with Sirenia Sanchez

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome, everyone. I am so happy and excited. Today we have a special guest, someone who is a former UCSB McNair scholar and alum. She's gonna be talking about the topic of ethical chisme, and the harsh realities of grad school. This is such a strong topic. I'm so excited for you to get into this.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But before you do, I'm going to share her bio so you know who she is. Our speaker today is Sirenia Sanchez. She is a third year PhD candidate in the Social Psychology doctoral program at Northwestern. She received her BA in Psychology and Communication from University of California, Santa Barbara, where, like I said earlier, she was a McNair Scholar. That's how we know each other.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Her current research focuses on the psychological effects of cultural appropriation, and the racial and gender differences found in how people perceive rise. Outside of the lab, however, Sirenia serves as a diversity and inclusion fellow for Northwestern's graduate school, and she's also a social media chair for Comunidad Latinx, a group of Latinx graduate students. So welcome, Sirenia. We'll get started with the first question- if you can tell us a little bit more about yourself, about your background, and how you got to graduate school and the field of social psych.

Sirenia Sanchez

Yeah, thank you so much for having me Yvette. It's really exciting to be in this space. My name is Sirenia. I am from Southern California, specifically the Inland Empire. I'm a first gen college student. Like Yvette mentioned, I went to UC Santa Barbara and I was in the McNair Scholars Program. While I was in the program, I also went to a summer research program at Northwestern, which is really what got my start into grad school and what convinced me to leave California and go to Chicago.

Sirenia Sanchez

Since then, I've been focusing my research on social psychology, because I'm really interested in racial and ethnic identities and how we as people of color maneuver ourselves in this world, in this country. So particularly, I'm interested in cultural appropriation because that affects how we feel and how we feel accepted by our peers who engage in appropriation. A lot of my work tries to center the impacts we experience as people of color. I've been in grad school for about three years.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Wow.

Sirenia Sanchez

I know, it's crazy. I never thought I'd be in this position. I'm still trying to find ways to survive, and still learn what it's like to be in academic spaces like grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know, grad school is hard for everyone. It's not a surprise that we have this topic today. I wanted you to kind of tell us a little bit about why you were interested in talking about ethical chisme. I'm actually less familiar with the phrase, so I was hoping that you could define the term "ethical chisme." How do you define it? And then let us know, what does that have to do with grad school and with those challenges, the harsh realities, that we've been referring to?

Sirenia Sanchez

Absolutely. I definitely want to preface that the term "ethical chisme" was something that I learned and heard from on a podcast called Locatora Radio. In my first year of grad school, it was my first time living completely alone in an apartment. I was used to living with so many people, either back home or in college. I really needed the apartment to be filled with voices and people, so I was listening to this podcast, Locatora Radio and they had an interview with Queer Xicano Chisme. I think they go by Ruben, and they discussed ethical chisme.

Sirenia Sanchez

The episode is called "Para luchar, hay que Chismear." So definitely listen to that. It opened my mind and really let me reconsider what chisme really is, and remove the negative connotation of being called a chismosa. Because there's a lot of power in engaging in chisme. The way I reflect on that episode is that ethical chisme is used for spreading information to predict, to protect marginalized people, survivors, those who are on the lower end of power dynamics. It's really used to spread information in the hopes of protecting others.

Sirenia Sanchez

That's kind of how I have approached ethical chisme and distinguishing being chismosa and a metiche. That's something in the podcast that they share, that a chismosa is involving talking about a topic that's relevant to them and their safety. Whereas metiche is like you're just getting into somebody else's business that has nothing to do with you and is not relevant to you. It was really eye opening, to really break away from these negative words, and really understanding the distinction that being a chismosa could be really helpful, especially in spaces in which you feel threatened, in a new space.

Sirenia Sanchez

I think that's what grad school kind of is, just this very new space, especially for first gen, students of color. How to maneuver that space, how do you know about what to do, who to work with, who to take a class with? It's all through, in a way, ethical chisme, just chismo you hear from other students. If a professor has engaged in inappropriate behavior, has said racist or insensitive stuff, the only way that's really communicated- it's never going to be communicated in the course description. The faculty will not say that to you.

Sirenia Sanchez

You depend on other students to be like, hey, don't take this class. This guy, or this person, is just really not a good instructor to be around. And that's the kind of stuff I've been trying to engage in now that I'm a third year. I try to be there for younger students, because we do have problematic faculty at Northwestern and every department, anywhere, has problematic faculty. That's something I didn't realize was how personal academia can be, how much personalities can really dominate a classroom or a relationship.

Sirenia Sanchez

So I've tried to reach out to first year students, and give them a heads up of who to trust and who not to trust. Especially reaching out to students of color, who are entering this very white space, and just giving them the lowdown of like, you know, this experience is something that I experienced with this person, I just want to give you the heads up so you can prepare as you enter a relationship with that faculty or advisor.

Sirenia Sanchez

Because that's something I wish happened to me when I started grad school. There was a problematic faculty who taught a stats class that all first year students have to take, and I didn't realize that he would use transphobic and racist examples in the class. That really distracted me from learning. So I wish I knew, I wish someone had my back and gave me the 411 of like, this is what you're going to expect in this class. And I try to do that with first years that are in my program, and tell them like, hey. This is a mandatory class you have to take with this professor, and they will bring up insensitive topics. But do your best to try to focus on the learning objectives and try to separate the things you're learning in class from the person. That was really hard for me to do, because I was so blindsided by how this could be a thing.

Sirenia Sanchez

SoI think engaging in ethical chisme really helps prepare first gen graduate students, really helps prepare students of color to exceed and not get distracted by problematic people in their department. It can also save a lot of time of also thinking, is this just me? Am I the only person who sees this? Am I the only person who's catching this remark that's racist, transphobic, homophobic etc?

Sirenia Sanchez

I also think being open and developing trust with other grad students, so you guys can share your perceptions and what you see, because sometimes it can feel like you're the only one seeing things. But you can develop a sense of camaraderie and solidarity when you come together and talk about- hey, did you see what happened in class? Then together, you can kind of reflect on the process and not feel alone. So that's kind of a brief introduction of how I engage in ethical chisme in graduate school to protect myself and to protect others, because a lot of academia is still in the hands of older, white, straight cis men, who don't realize what they're saying can be really hurtful and perpetrate a lot of issues.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Wow. You know, this is a really good teaching moment- not just for the listeners, but also for me- because I'm not gonna lie. I have associated chisme with that negative connotation. When I was in grad school, I would say, try to avoid intra department politics and try to avoid the gossip. Even among my own circle of friends- my circle of friends were other women of color in different departments- we would avoid talking about the politics of our own departments, and having the word spread. So I was always very careful with who I shared what with.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So in many ways, I think I had this negative association. But I was I was myself exercising that the ethical chisme, because when people reached out to me, I always would talk to them. I would say- actually you want to avoid so and so. They're very toxic, and I worked with them. It was not positive. They're racist or sexist, they're this, they're that. But it's just a really good teachable moment.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And I'm wondering, because you mentioned more than once, I wish someone would have told me about this. In some ways, you wish you would have avoided being blindsided. So I'm like, strategically, what can you do? Because I tell the students- our current McNair Scholars-all the time, before you apply, talk to the professors, and talk to the grad students. And talking to the grad students is just as important, if not more important than talking to the professors. I'm like, talk to them, talk to them, talk to them.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Sometimes they listen, sometimes they don't. And I really wish that they did listen, because I'm like, the grad students- a lot of them, not everybody, but a lot of them- will be compelled to tell you the truth. So strategically, what would you say to students who are trying to protect themselves and like you, don't want to be blindsided? They still want to go to grad school and navigate it, but they want to be able to avoid toxicity as much as possible.

Sirenia Sanchez

Yeah. I think one thing, too, is to also clarify that you can have a toxic relationship with an advisor, or somebody that you work with. That's sometimes a reality that isn't talked about in undergrad, because we think professionalism would entail a peaceful and equal relationship. But grad school can become really personal, and so also to just emphasize that it's important to know who you're working with. Obviously, the way to go about is not asking the faculty themselves, like, are you toxic?

Sirenia Sanchez

But absolutely, I always recommend undergrads to reach out to grad students first. It also helps you gauge how available the faculty is, if the faculty is willing to speak with you, and grad students can vouch for you as an undergrad and put you in contact with the faculty. But grad students will be there, or should be there, to tell you honestly what the reality is to work with a certain person. That's also my strategy, to do that during interview weekends. Ask how it is to work with an advisor. How has an advisor approached disagreement between the student and themselves? I think that could be really helpful.

Sirenia Sanchez

I think the biggest thing is reaching out to grad students. You can do this via email. Academic Twitter is a thing. It seems to be really growing. DM-ing any grad students that are in the labs or the programs you're interested in would be really helpful. And sometimes it's just a matter of being in grad school, and then developing and identifying older grad students who you can trust. Because like you said, Yvette, we engage in these things, in this chisme, with people who we trust. It's a selective process.

Sirenia Sanchez

That's a good distinction.

Sirenia Sanchez

Yes. With a metiche, they don't care who knows. They don't care how it impacts somebody. But with the ethical chisme, you have a selective process of who will trust you and who will trust your judgment, and will trust your intentions. I think with ethical chisme, it comes with good intentions to protect and to advise someone of something problematic or troublesome that may happen.

Sirenia Sanchez

So for any incoming grad students, identify that person that you can trust. Gauge if they're willing to talk about the realities of grad school, because a lot of us have experienced inappropriate or uncomfortable situations. I think that would be the most important part- identifying somebody or getting in contact with another student of color in the program.

Sirenia Sanchez

That's what I did when I went to Northwestern. The summer after my junior year, there was a lot of white people in the space and there was one black student in the lab. And I reached out to her and I was like, hey. What is your experience as a woman of color in this space? And she gave me the low down. She gave me the chisme of what it was like to be a woman of color at Northwestern in the Department of Psychology. And I appreciated that.

Sirenia Sanchez

So I identified her as someone I can trust, and someone who has trusted me with the information to protect me, as well as getting into Northwestern. I think that would be the biggest strategy, just identifying other students of color or other students who share similar identities that are important to you, and seeing how they feel in that space. And just asking a broad question of what is something you wish you knew about working with so and so, being in a class with so and so. I think just really identifying people who you trust, because they'll be the ones to have your back and to hear you out. We do experience inappropriate or uncomfortable situations. So I would say that. Grad students, and just identifying the group who you can trust.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

As I'm hearing you speak about this, I can see how you're saying trust is a really big thing with exercising ethical chisme, because the individual has to feel that they trust you, trust your judgment. And vice versa, you need to feel that you trust them and that the word isn't going to spread. That's the part of it that I'm always curious about, because in sharing and disclosing information, you're also being vulnerable and putting yourself at risk in some way, shape, or form.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I've heard of folks who have opted, even in my own department when I was a grad student, who opted not to say anything, or who took the side of the faculty and just wanted to make sure that they were in good terms with all the faculty in the department. So they did not share that information. If you did go to them, they would just talk about the logistics of the program, but they just didn't share anything negative. Even though we knew that there were some people that you wanted to avoid, and some things that were happening that were not okay. So I'm curious, how do you navigate that aspect of it? You have good intentions, you want to protect someone, and there's always that risk. Some folks choose not to take that risk, and some of us choose to take that risk.

Sirenia Sanchez

That's an excellent question. I think it's something that I'm still maneuvering. Who do I trust to understand my intentions when I try to give them the heads up? It's really difficult, because there's so much power dynamics and politics in graduate school because grad students are in a lower position of power. An advisor can just not work with us, can take away our funding, could refuse to give us feedback on work, give us bad reviews. There's multiple ways in which we can rub faculty the wrong way, and if it gets eventually to them, it can be really difficult.

Sirenia Sanchez

I think with establishing trust and identifying who to talk to about these things, I think there's also the element of respecting somebody's silence or somebody's decision not to disclose. Because these things are really difficult to maneuver. Ethical chisme is not a common topic in grad school, and that's something I want to try to invite other grad students to not just share the accomplishments and the great things that we've done in our research, but to engage in the ways in which we struggle, and the ways in which we've encountered something uncomfortable with somebody.

Sirenia Sanchez

Really trying to normalize a culture in which we're transparent. I think that's the ultimate goal, to be transparent, because there's just hidden norms and curriculums in grad school. We don't know what's normal. We don't know what it's like to maneuver this space. Because of that, it is hard to identify someone who will be open and receptive. Sometimes people just have reasons to fear, to be scared to open up. And I think it's just best to respect it. If you feel like someone's not engaging or uncomfortable, then to not share that information with that person.

Sirenia Sanchez

Because this is a really difficult space to maneuver, and you don't want to force somebody to disclose personal information that can sometimes feel embarrassing or shameful. I think it's just moving on, and finding other spaces. That could be a therapist even, other students from a different department or program. Joining clubs, student organizations, where you don't feel like what you're going to share is gonna get around to somewhere else, but maybe that person can still take your advice, even if it doesn't apply to the same program. But yeah, it's a really difficult space to be in because there can be repercussions that are really damaging.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah, that's a part of it that I feel like is so risky. It's the repercussions. It's like, what if what you share about an individual goes and gets spread to that person themselves? And that's a part of it that's like, everybody has to be very careful with what they decide to do and who they decide to share with because of that power dynamic that you've pointed out. That power dynamic, it exists. You can't hide it. Even if a professor tries to act. Some professors are great, and they are really good advocates and they're good people. Those are the professors you want there.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But despite, as much as they want to be good people, there's still that hierarchy, and they still have a lot of power over you. They can still, like you said, take away your funding, impose hurdles that will prevent you from graduating. It's just, it's really scary. Which was why- like I was saying- when I was in grad school, I did exercise ethical chisme, but I was very selective with who I talked to. It was often just with people I was very close to, or folks that, right away, when we started talking, we developed a good rapport. Even if they were new people that were coming in, I was like, I can tell. I don't know what it is.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It's about intuition. There's that feeling in my gut of like, oh, you're cool. I don't even know how to describe that. There's just that feeling, when you're like, okay, you're cool. I can trust you. I don't know what it was about that feeling. Then there are other folks that I just didn't get that feeling. I'm gonna tread waters carefully. And most of the time, it didn't fail me. So it's just interesting that you're talking about that, because I'm like, there's something about it. Not just going off and talking to anybody, and not just going off and being a metiche and trying to find out about other people's business. It's not about other people's business. It's about safety and protection.

Sirenia Sanchez

It's usually centered around informing students about faculty. It's not about just speaking ill of other people, just to say it. It's really about how someone of a higher authority can be, in some ways, really toxic. And just to give the heads up. Also, it's good to be just clear that this is not slandering. This is not just giving adjectives, negative adjectives to the person, but just being concrete. Like, this person has done this to this person or to me, and I feel like that's something that's relevant to you and you should know in case you encounter this.

Sirenia Sanchez

And telling students you can come to me, if this is what you're going through, so you're not alone. Just being really clear, making these more about actions, and also providing that safe space for if something repeats, that there's a space for those students to go to. And that it's okay to talk about these issues, and not be silently on their own, reflecting and thinking that they have done something wrong when it's sometimes just the faculty or the person in power who's engaging in something toxic.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Do you feel like it's always about something really like a big thing? Like, oh, this person is known to be racist and sexist, or this person is known to discriminate in this way. Can it also be about- because I know sometimes it's like, oh, I kind of want to tell you, my department doesn't really offer funding. I kind of want to tell you, we don't have a lot of resources. There's things that are not even about an individual per se, but about the department, the culture, the space. Or maybe, you like hands on, this person is very hands off. There's nothing wrong with that person. They're great, but that's just their style. I can imagine that can all be part of that conversation too.

Sirenia Sanchez

Yeah, 100%, I agree. I think this expands to just neutral things that, just information of like, well, when my adviser gives feedback, they can be pretty blunt. It's nothing about you. They're just a really straight to the point person. And that's information. That's intel that would help inform somebody if that's a relationship that they want to have with an advisor that does that. So 100%. Like I try to give advice about who is hands on, who is hands off, who expects more independence from a grad student, and who doesn't.

Sirenia Sanchez

Absolutely, I think that's a big part of ethical chisme, just to inform. Inform people of the things that aren't obvious, the things that aren't embedded in the cultural norm of grad school. It could be extreme things. Ideally, hopefully those are minimal. But it is about just informing. Like, is this the best fit for you? Sometimes that makes the biggest difference too, just a good advisor- advisee relationship fit, and really asking those questions.

Sirenia Sanchez

So I totally agree. Even sharing the things that are like no, like maybe minimal funding, or the problems with money in grad school. That in itself too. Anything that's done to protect and to inform people who might be in vulnerable positions in the future, I think, would be considered into ethical chisme. Really just being transparent about what it's like to be in grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I love that. I guess I've been exercising that all along without knowing.

Sirenia Sanchez

Same. Once I heard that podcast, I was like, that's something I did in my junior year. At Northwestern, I wanted that chisme. I wanted that insight. That's just something that we all do to protect each other, and to look out for one another, because these spaces can really make us feel that we don't belong, or that we're the only one seeing something wrong in the space. So yeah, I think a lot of us do this already. And I think just thinking of it as ethical chisme can really help continue this motivation that we all have.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah, it's helpful to reframe it in the way that that you're saying. We're gonna get ready to wrap up, and I have just another question. Because we've been talking about stuff that's not always fun to talk about- the challenges, the difficulties, the things that you want to watch out for in grad school. But I'm like, well, you're still a grad student. I still got my PhD. What motivates you to keep going? What advice would you give to others who are on this path, and who know that there will be challenges, and who are still motivated to pursue graduate school? So what what keeps you going?

Sirenia Sanchez

Yeah, I definitely think it's other students of color in academia. It really is just other people like us, who exceed and do well and create community. That's honestly been the biggest thing for me, knowing that if something goes wrong, if I'm uncomfortable, if I'm not happy with a certain situation, I have a community to rely on. I have folks who understand me, folks who will listen to me and respect and validate my feelings. I think that's the biggest part.

Sirenia Sanchez

Because we will struggle. We will have disagreements with our advisors. We will have disagreements with our departments' choices. We will always want better for ourselves and for others. So just having a space to talk about it, and to know that you're not alone, I think has been the biggest motivator for me. This is not a space in which I'm left to struggle by myself. There's a community here. I'm also just really happy with how much opportunities there are to connect with students at Northwestern in particular.

Sirenia Sanchez

I think that's been the biggest motivator, and I would suggest for grad students who are just starting to find your community. Find your people. Even if your department is so white, or whatever, reach out to different departments. Reach out to different student orgs, really try to get involved. And try to look out for other incoming students as you get older. I think that's a way of also developing communities. You initiating and creating that safe space for students.

Sirenia Sanchez

I think just being aware that trouble can come in grad school and not be blindsided. Be aware that there are politics, and there's big personalities, problematic personalities, and that academia is not an objective space. It's really subjective. I think the first step is to realize that, and then to develop community so you can cope and laugh about it too, right? Sometimes it's just fun to laugh at the struggles that we go through, because sometimes it can be often. And sometimes it just be ridiculous. So I think that's what would be my biggest suggestions for students going into grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I like that you mentioned community. I know a lot of folks will stress- oh, networking is important in grad school. But I've always tried to focus more on community building, and establishing support systems. I can actually vouch that in grad school I made some of my lifelong friends. Same even in undergrad.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I did the Mellon Mays program, kind of like McNair, and I've got a couple of folks from that program and from grad school. They're my ride or dies. They're my lifelong friends. They're people that got my back and have vouched for me, and I feel like that's probably true for you. You've probably met some folks that you know, these folks are going to be around a long time. If not, for most of your life. That's kind of nice. It's like no matter what happens on your path, if you establish that community, that support system, you've got folks who are going to be there for you no matter what.

Sirenia Sanchez

Definitely.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Well, now that we're wrapping up, if anybody wanted to reach out to you, or if someone was just like, I really would like to connect a little bit more. I resonated so much with what you said. Is there any way for them to reach out to you? Do you have an academic Twitter or something that I could share with them?

Sirenia Sanchez

Yeah, you can find me on academic Twitter. My handle is Sirenia_SV. Feel free to DM me. If you just Google my name- Sirenia Sanchez, Northwestern. I'll probably show up on Google. But you can probably just find me on Twitter. I'm super happy to discuss more about this topic, more about grad school. It's a complicated space to be in, but it's still a space that I encourage folks to go to, especially if they have the tools to do so. It's all possible. And I just want to be sure everyone has the right resources to succeed.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Thank you so much Sirenia. I appreciate it. It's been so nice.

Sirenia Sanchez

Yes. Thank you so much, Yvette. I really enjoyed this conversation.