61: Being a Woman of Color in a STEM Grad Program with Yanelyn Perez

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome, everyone. I'm so happy to have a special guest today. Someone I know, because she was a former UCSB McNair Scholar. I'm so happy that she's here today. Today we're gonna cover the topic of what it's like being a woman of color in the STEM field. I'm going to go ahead and get started by sharing her bio.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Our guest today is Yanelyn Perez, who is currently a first year PhD student studying wild life disease ecology at the University of Maryland College Park. Prior to grad school, she earned her Bachelor's degree at UCSB studying zoology and researching disease ecology. I figured we could start with you telling us a little bit more about yourself- who you are, your background, what motivated you or inspired you to pursue research in grad school in a STEM field. So all about you, whatever you want to share.

Yanelyn Perez

Thank you. Originally, when I was very little- I grew up all my life in Los Angeles. So very concrete-y, I grew up in apartments. We didn't really have that much outdoor stuff. It's kind of crazy, because on the East Coast, it's so green. The kids here are having a good time. But I've always really loved animals and plants. I would spend most of my time outside when I was little, and I would collect cockroaches, and ladybugs, and roly polies, because I thought they were really cool.

Yanelyn Perez

We weren't allowed to have pets in my apartment. But I really liked animals, and I really liked looking at the different plants. I'm the daughter of immigrants, and my dad is from El Salvador. And when I was little, he would always tell me about all the different animals he'd see, all the different trees he'd climb. Growing up, he'd always tried to give me as much outdoor space as he had when he was little, even though it's pretty limited in Los Angeles. So you know, we'd go to the beach on the weekends. We'd go to the park. We'd go out on little walks to see birds and stuff.

Yanelyn Perez

And that's kind of a lot, because he worked six out of seven days a week. So essentially, on his day off, he would take me outside. For most people, they would just rest and catch up on things with their families and stuff. I'm really grateful, and I acknowledge that most of my interest came because of that effort he put into me, just cultivating that interest. When I was little too, if he had a pay raise, he would get me a Crocodile Hunter DVD or something like animal planet.

Yanelyn Perez

It was very cultivated ever since I was little. And I'm very grateful that I still have that environment to grow it, even though Los Angeles and the suburbs and the city aren't really a nature-y place in general. So growing up, again, being the daughter of immigrants, because my mother is also an immigrant, I didn't really know that many job aspects either. I was kind of told to be a lawyer or doctor, pick which one you want.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Same. They're like you're smart. Just become a doctor- and they mean medical doctor.

Yanelyn Perez

Exactly. It's like, okay, you're better at math so let's be a doctor. Let's aim for doctor. So I didn't really know there are many different options for jobs. I grew up thinking like, well, if I'm going to be a doctor, I should be an animal doctor. I like animals, so why not? All my life I thought I wanted to be a veterinarian, just because I didn't really know there was options outside of that.

Yanelyn Perez

I went to high school in a magnet system, which I'm really grateful for too. It was adjacent to the Los Angeles Zoo. So I was able to do animal husbandry classes, zoology classes, environmental studies, ecology. It was a two hour bus ride from my house though.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

What was the specialization of that magnet school, just out of curiosity?

Yanelyn Perez

Ecology and environmental sciences.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's so interesting. I went to a math, science, technology Magnet High School, which is why I'm still very good at math. Science, I don't like.

Yanelyn Perez

It was like a two hour bus ride. Everyone told me, you're not gonna like it. I was like, I'm gonna like it. I know I'm gonna like it. In that magnet, I kind of discovered there's more options because we had Earth days, and we would invite speakers who had different careers in environmental science and ecology.

Yanelyn Perez

And I was like, I guess I still want to be a vet because these are more people involved and everything. Then I finally talked to a vet technician, and I realized I probably would be really bad at it because I'm really emotional when it comes to animals. It sounded like a lot of emotional work in accordance to being with the vet, because you have to handle your patients. You have to handle if you lose an animal. You have to handle talking to the family of the lost patient or breaking bad news, and I was terrified of that.

Yanelyn Perez

Then I kind of had an existential crisis, because if I don't want to be a vet, what am I doing? And blah, blah, blah. I remember telling my dad this, and he was like, you should be a scientist. I was like,I don't know if that's an option. He was like, I think you would look good in a lab coat. You're smart.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

He was onto something.

Yanelyn Perez

He was onto something. But it was funny, because I never considered it at that point. I don't know if he knows the full implications of being a researcher or scientist. He was just like, you know, they go out, answer your questions. You like answering questions. You're a curious girl. I see a scientist being a good fit for you. I was like, you're crazy. I don't know.

Yanelyn Perez

Then my senior year of high school, when I was trying to decide what colleges I wanted to go to, I was like, maybe I should kind of figure out what other job paths there are, because I don't want to be in debt for a degree that I don't know I'm gonna go into. Especially being in high school, thinking that young, I was just an over thinker. And I remember talking to a teacher in high school, and he was like, well, maybe you should go into research. I was like, I don't know what that means. Like biology labs?

Yanelyn Perez

He was like, well kind of. He explained to me the basics of research. You find a topic and you want to expand on it, and you do a bunch of studies to try and expand on it, and you create more knowledge for the collective good. I was like, I guess that sounds better than a nine to five job and an office job and stuff. So I decided then that maybe I should look more into research. But again, I never had the guidance of like oh- a Master's or a PhD. I just thought you go into college, and then you come out a researcher.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's more than I knew at that time. I didn't even know about research in high school at all. I didn't find out until the end of my sophomore year, beginning of junior year.

Yanelyn Perez

I was very fortunate that in my freshman year of college, I found a research lab with stuff I was super interested in. I did frog research all throughout my four years of college. I love frogs, and it was a very wonderful blessing. I don't think I would be where I'm at without that lab or without the people I met in that lab.

Yanelyn Perez

The postdoc I worked under during my first project, she was also a first generation student. And I remember telling her I want to get into research, but I don't really know the implications of that. I don't know if I have enough money for that. Because I also hear grad school, PA school, postbaccs, all these different things. I'm like, oh, that sounds like money. I don't have money.

Yanelyn Perez

And she explained to me the whole system. She was like don't feel bad. I was in your position when I was in college. If you want to ask stupid questions or questions you think are stupid, ask me. If you think these questions are reductive, or you think that they're easy answers still ask me. I know it's a scary field for you, and I want to be the person to guide you where to go.

Yanelyn Perez

So because of her, I realized I could do a PhD and that it's funded, that I don't have to pay out of pocket essentially. And, you know, I was like, you need a Master's. And she was like, no you don't. Just go straight into a Ph. D program. And typically if you want to get a masters, you can find funded masters. She kind of went into all the logistics of it. Like this is what you would need to get into grad school. You need research experience. You need connections with your professors. You need this and that. And I felt very fortunate because I feel you typically don't get that type of guidance when you're a woman of color in STEM.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's what I've heard as well.

Yanelyn Perez

You don't. Especially in a school like UCSB, which is super big. It's a huge research institution, very credible, very name worthy. It's just very competitive within, so it's really hard to get those resources. And typically, you know, disadvantaged groups aren't going to get that. So I feel very, extremely fortunate to have had that since my freshman year, and kind of know what I needed to do to get into grad school. And then also the McNair scholars. So I think that's how my interest was cultivated in research. It was throughout my whole life, and kind of just cultivated and defined itself in college, which is great.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I was gonna say it's interesting, because you actually started talking about what I was going to ask next, which is- what was it like being a woman of color in STEM as an undergrad? You kind of started talking about how thankfully, you had good support. But also if you can kind of expand a little bit more on that, and then tell us maybe the difference between what it was like being a woman of color in STEM at UCSB, and now in grad school at University of Maryland. They're two very different places, spaces and experiences. And even your identity, from undergrad to grad school, being a grad student is so different. So I'm just curious what you've learned. Remind us what year you're in grad school?

Yanelyn Perez

My first year still.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh my gosh. So you're fresh off, in your second semester. Oh my goodness.

Yanelyn Perez

I feel like a fish out of water.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes, frog out of water.

Yanelyn Perez

This is a great question. As an undergrad, I struggled so badly with imposter syndrome and I didn't even know that was a term until my second year. It's kind of like the thing where you don't see yourself being represented in the field. This is just one of my biggest gripes with STEM and with life sciences, because specifically with life sciences, like ecology, biology, all those fun, life related stuff. The majority of people in there are actually women. So it's kind of funny to see like, oh, I still feel underrepresented in a field that's mostly dominated by women.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Its funny, I've heard that too.

Yanelyn Perez

Typically, just because it's mostly white women who dominate the field. As an undergrad- and you're kind of navigating out of the weeder classes into the upper division classes- there's never really been a time where I saw myself being represented fully in any of those classes. The only time I saw a bunch of diversity in the STEM classes happened to be freshman year, the first semester or quarter of chem. You know, because everyone wants to be a doctor. Everyone is trying to get into the bio major. Then by your second quarter, the second part of it, more than half of the class drops.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, wow.

Yanelyn Perez

Because it's a hard class. And again, it has to do with resources as well. If you want to a really great high school that taught you how to prep for classes, prep for tests, built up your study repertoire, you're gonna do good. You're gonna see all these materials, you're going to know how to study. You're going to know how to tackle it.

Yanelyn Perez

But if you didn't, then you're kind of at a disadvantage, because you have to figure that out by yourself. And most people I knew, and myself included, had jobs. So I saw and knew people who would spend maybe like seven hours a day studying the material they needed. Of course, they came out with an A. Other people I knew who had two jobs, who would work back to back, maybe studied an hour or two a day, would barely get C's.

Yanelyn Perez

It's very disheartening, because you're in a college setting, and you would think everyone has equal opportunities to these resources. But going further and further into that biology course chain, I didn't really see any other or a lot of women of color. I saw a lot of white women, I saw a lot of white men. I saw a lot of Asian diversity too. But in terms of Black and Latino bodies, you really don't see much. And I think it's kind of a shame that our population isn't really getting supported throughout STEM.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It's wild that you say that because at UCSB, it's considered an HSI- Hispanic serving institution. And even then, even though it's an HSI, there's still not enough representation, and especially in STEM. So you have double marginalization or multiple forms, because it's not only being a person of color, but also being a woman. Maybe you might have found some black and brown men in your classes, and even fewer folks were like you.

Yanelyn Perez

I remember since I was a zoology major, for one of my first upper div zoology classes, it was a class of 15. It was super tiny, tiny for Santa Barbara standards.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah that is small. Well, for grad school, no.

Yanelyn Perez

But you know, I kind of looked around the room, and I realized I was the only Latina woman there. That shocked me. It was a random day in the quarter. I was just taking notes, and I looked around the room and I was like, hmm, this is a little suspicious.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Then you feel like you stick out, because I remember when I was an undergrad- I wasn't in STEM, but I was in a predominantly white discipline. I would go into my classes, and I would count. I would see is there someone else brown- Black or brown?

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, I counted- and from there, I kept counting in my upper division classes.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I always counted and sometimes that's when I'd be like, oh my gosh. I'm the only one. I stick out. Everything I say, they're gonna be judging me.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah. I think part of my reason for not really speaking out in classes was just because I felt super shy. I had some experiences in high school where people were like, oh, she's Mexican. She can't do math or something like that- to my face. I'm not even Mexican. I'm Salvadorian and Honduran.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

The assumptions, oh my gosh.

Yanelyn Perez

Stuff like that kind of scared me from talking. Because I don't want to speak in a class of 15. And again, this was the imposter syndrome kicking in. Like, I don't deserve to be here. I don't see myself here, which again, is a representation thing.

Yanelyn Perez

So I would just be like, I know this could be a good question. But I'm just going to wait until after class, so nobody else hears me. Because what if it's a stupid question? And what if people are like, why is she even here? Or something like that. And that would terrify me for some reason. So yeah, as an undergrad, it was pretty harsh on the classes when you're further into your discipline and major, because you just wouldn't see yourself represented, and it kind of just feeds into the imposter syndrome.

Yanelyn Perez

I know that it's mostly a lot of women of color who face impostor syndrome, because, again, these spaces weren't necessarily created or sustained for us.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Exactly.

Yanelyn Perez

We kind of end up here, and we're just like, am I supposed to be here? Should I speak on this? Should I do this and that? As an undergrad, it's just disheartening at times.

Yanelyn Perez

And then again, going back to the support system, that's what kind of got me through everything. Because the more people you talk to who are in these situations where- you're either in STEM or a majority white discipline, stuff like that. You see you're not alone in your thoughts, and it makes you feel a lot better because you don't feel crazy. You don't think- oh, I'm overreacting to this, or I'm doing that. It's like, no, my friend is also thinking this, and my other friend is also thinking this.

Yanelyn Perez

That's why I really loved McNair Scholars, too, because everyone felt that too. It was super easy to talk to, and be like, do you guys feel that or is that just me? You feel less alone, and in turn, you just feel more supported, because then your friends would be like, just talk. If you have a good question, what's stopping you?

Yanelyn Perez

So basically, as an undergrad being in a predominantly white and non black or Latino space. It felt disheartening at times. But I guess having the proper support system really did help me get through it. It wasn't my main focus. It was extremely difficult to stay and maintain my grades and do all these things, especially as an undergrad trying to get into grad school.

Yanelyn Perez

You're expected to do research. You're expected to form connections with your professors. And at the same time, if you don't have support from your family, you're expected to work. You're expected to do this and that. I was very stressed. But at the end of the day, I was really grateful for everything that came along my way, which are the people and all the opportunities.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That leads us into now, you're in Maryland, at University of Maryland.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Now I'm curious because that first year is rough for everybody. We actually recently had an alumni panel come in and talk to our McNair Scholars. Some of them were in their second year, some of them were in your cohort, and everybody was saying- I remember it was so hard my first quarter. And then my first year, it was rough. So I can only imagine how things have been for you. I'm just curious if you can just share a little bit more what you've learned just from having survived your first semester, and now trying to kind of manage and wrap up your second one. Is it done? It's not done yet, right?

Yanelyn Perez

Next week, it's done. So I'm basically done right now.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, my gosh. You're about to wrap up your first year.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, I'm basically done with my first year. As an undergrad, I was stressed out about the spaces. I was stressed out about speaking, and I had a support system. Currently, it's even more difficult because I haven't met people from my cohort, essentially, other than zoom calls. And I would want to assume that the first year of grad school is extremely hard regardless. But I think being virtual as your entire first year is insanely difficult for me.

Yanelyn Perez

Typically, again, when you're entering undergrad from high school, this is the time you develop your study methods, your effective methods. You start to discover- am I a morning person? Am I a night person? Where do I work best- outside my house, or this and that? It kind of blurred the lines from undergrad going into grad school just because it's a different field all in all. There's different expectations.

Yanelyn Perez

So I plan to TA my first few semesters. Being in charge of handling lesson materials for students, and then being in charge of figuring out where I want my research to go, reading fifteen papers or more on a weekend when I'm supposed to be resting, struggling in classes that I find extremely difficult.

Yanelyn Perez

It's really hard to make the spaces where I have a support system, just because I haven't been really able to talk to anyone. And I'm actually really grateful for Maryland, because our biology cohort is actually super diverse. It's a very nice difference from what I was used to in Santa Barbara. Even the undergrad students, it's much more like it's a huge diversity of who's in the biology and ecology classes.

Yanelyn Perez

But in terms of my specific cohort, there are still some diversity issues. But I have been able to find other Latina women who are actually in my same concentration, who are actually ecologists.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's awesome, wow.

Yanelyn Perez

I have someone on my committee who is actually a professor, profesora.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's great.

Yanelyn Perez

I talk to her so much. I'm like, oh, did you have issues with this in your first year? She's super helpful, and a nice source of resources and advice. And, again, she's on my committee, so I always bug her and stuff.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But you're not bugging her, by the way.

Yanelyn Perez

I know.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It feels that way.

Yanelyn Perez

I feel like ask her some dumb questions, but she's awesome. I really appreciate having her. My PI is also a woman, so sometimes when I'm having issues, like feminine issues, I can talk to her and be like, hey. I'm feeling really sick today, and I really can't come in. Or I feel really overwhelmed, and everything that's coming my way just feels like it's a lot. She is really sympathetic with that. I have the beginnings of a really good support system. I just haven't been able to fully flush it out, because I haven't been able to meet anyone in person.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It takes a while even if they had been in person, it takes a while to build community, to find people. I feel like I'm still trying to build community. It's been four years, so it takes a while. Don't worry, I'm not saying it's gonna take you that long. But I remember my first few years of grad school, I didn't have that support system set up.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So I went out and tried to find it or build it. It wasn't until I was actually done with coursework that I really started to form those support systems. You can get a head start as early as possible, because you know better. I didn't. It sounds like you have at least one cheerleader, which is that person on your committee.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah. My advisor, too, because sometimes I'll tell her I feel really overwhelmed. Specifically last semester, I had a family member pass away.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, I'm sorry.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, I was very distressed. I reached out to her like, hey. I know I was supposed to do this project, but I really need a week. I want to go back to California and be with my family. I know it's really inconvenient.

Yanelyn Perez

But she reassured me- your personal matters are not inconvenient. Your worries, your stress are valid. Take the time you need. We will figure out what we need to do when you come back.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Right, that's good.

Yanelyn Perez

I also messaged the department head and the concentration head like, is it okay if I take some time off the semester? Everyone was super helpful, like yeah, take your time. Just make sure you get your TA stuff in order. But if that's not an issue, if your PI knows, go ahead. Take the time. Let us know when you come back. Let us know how you're feeling. The department itself is super supportive, and has the beginnings of a nice community.

Yanelyn Perez

I would say that from undergrad, I kind of knew that I needed a support group. Going into grad school, it's something I knew I needed. That's why the program was really appealing to me to begin with too, because most of the grad students said they felt super supported by the concentration head or by their advisors, or by the other students of the cohort. So that was my main focus.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's why I tell students when they're looking to apply to grad school and trying to come up with the grad list, a lot of times, you may- and most people are not gonna get into every program they apply to. A lot of times if you only get into a couple- I only got into one PhD program- but a lot of times it's a fit thing. You will get in where it's a good fit. So it sounds like you are where you were supposed to go, in terms of support.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, I only got into one program because I messed up some of my applications.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You did not mess up, stop.

Yanelyn Perez

It happened.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

All you need is one. Once you get that Ph.D., no one's gonna be like, how many grad programs did you get into. I'm still doctora, even with just one acceptance.

Yanelyn Perez

No, but that's the thing. I think it's crazy how it all worked out because at the time- well, I really like Maryland because the postdoc who was my mentor my freshman year actually did the same program. So she was the one who was like, it's a very good program. Do not go with my advisor, please do not go with my advisor. But everything else about the program is amazing. You could try if you find another advisor. I was like, okay, stay clear from her past advisor. I hear that.

Yanelyn Perez

Then yeah, I applied to two other schools, and I kind of messed up. One of them was a funding issue. The professor was like, you're gonna get in. You're gonna do that. Here's the lesson. Nobody knows if you're gonna get in, because funding is always a mysterious thing.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah. It really is.

Yanelyn Perez

Because he was so positive- the professor at Michigan, who was like, you're gonna be my only student studying this system, which is going to be great. You have a lot of background here. I'm very excited to have you. You're gonna love it here. Blah, blah, blah.

Yanelyn Perez

Then I got a rejection letter, and a follow up email from him saying he really vouched for me. He really did everything he could, but they just didn't have enough funding to bring me in. And I was like, well, I was hoping to go to Michigan. Then Maryland came through. I talked a bit more with the postdoc, and with some of the current students. I was like, wait, this is actually a really good fit. I think everything worked out the way it was supposed to.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Exactly, you never know. It's so funny. Now, it sounds like you said, you're developing the beginning of what may be the support system for you, that will help you keep going. So I'm wondering right now, fresh out of completing - or right about to complete your first year- what continues to motivate you?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I know we're getting close to wrapping up. So what continues to motivate you? And if there's any advice that you could give others. Maybe there are some listeners who are current undergrads. Maybe they kind of see themselves in you. They're like, oh, I'm also in a STEM field. I'm also a woman of color. But I'm afraid, or I feel not represented, or I feel like I don't belong. What advice would you give them? What helps you keep going, essentially?

Yanelyn Perez

Typically, when I used to mentor students at UCSB too, I would tell them- it sounds really cheesy, but do what you really want to do. If you are studying biology because you feel like you need to study biology, you're subconsciously not setting yourself up to succeed, because it's not something you want to do.

Yanelyn Perez

So if you want to go into research, you should know that that's something you want to do. Everything that comes with it- the failures, the extensive nights not sleeping, or the feeling that you don't belong either. And overcoming that, understanding yourself on a better emotional level. Research is a lot of stuff. So if you know you're up to it, it will happen.

Yanelyn Perez

The thing that inspires me and motivates me is just my basic love for nature. I grew up all my life, wanting to do stuff with nature and wanting to be with animals, wanting to be with flowers, and the bees, and all that stuff. And research is an opportunity for me to do that. My study system is in Italy with flowers in the mountains.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh wow, that's nice.

Yanelyn Perez

I know, it's really nice. As an undergrad, I went across California getting frogs, which is also a dream of mine too. So research for me is an opportunity to go out and explore these feelings I've had ever since I was little. I was fortunate to find my interests when I was little. Some people might find them in their last year of college, or post college, or are still finding them. And I think that's totally valid.

Yanelyn Perez

But once you find the one thing that you really like and you can explore it, I think that's just what keeps motivating you. There's many times this semester where I was like, am I even fit to be here? Everything's gonna be thrown at me. I don't really have that good of a support system yet. My classes, my TA ship, my research, my write ups, my grants. I don't know if I can do anything. I don't know if I'm fit to be a grad student. Then I would remember, these are all hurdles. You really like what you're doing. It seems really bad at the moment, and it is bad at the moment. Do not underestimate it, but it will pass as well. Things pass.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Exactly. Oh my gosh, I was about to say that.

Yanelyn Perez

It always passes and it feels like the end of the world. It feels like your chest tightening up. You get an email from your committee and you're like, oh god.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I remember those, so anxiety inducing. Like oh, they're going to tell me I messed up.

Yanelyn Perez

You get an email from her advisor, and you're like, oh my god, not now. Or you get students saying, I think you miss graded this and it's ten emails at a time. You're just like, I feel really overwhelmed. I just remind myself, you're here to study wildlife. You're here to study diseases. You're here so that you can get a degree and hopefully keep doing that in the future. That's what keeps motivating me. Then also being called Doctora, I want to have that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Soon enough. Trust me, it's gonna fly by before you know it.

Yanelyn Perez

That's the thing. I feel like my sole interest motivates me. And also, I'm hoping to be a professor or something along those lines. Hopefully- cross your fingers, if the job market isn't completely-

Yanelyn Perez

That's the thing. You have options. You can become a professor. You can become a researcher. Within the research realm, it's not just at the university, it's for industry companies, nonprofits. The whole world needs researchers right now, so I think you'll be good.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, but my thing is, I want to be in a space where I can inspire people who were like me in undergrad, who were scared because they didn't really see themselves. They didn't see themselves in the professors. They didn't see themselves in the grad students. They didn't see themselves as researchers. I had a few experiences as an undergrad where I was very directly reminded of that.

Yanelyn Perez

I had an experience at my job where our boss picked out a white crew member from the shift I was leading, and said, this is what an ecologist looks like. I remember that struck a nerve. I talked to him after. I was like, why wasn't I chosen to be the ecologist? He's like, because she has more experience. I was like, I have more experience. Why didn't you choose me? The kids that you are saying this to come from a Latino school. They all speak Spanish, and you chose a white woman to say, this is what an ecologist looks like.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm like, is that a micro or a macro aggression?

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, I was just like, why didn't you choose me? You know I speak Spanish. You know I'm Latina. And I'm an ecologist at this point. Why didn't you choose me? He was like, well, I think she was a better fit for the example. I remember thinking, this was going to scar those kids, because some of those kids are going to be like, I want to study animals. And they're gonna think back to that trip and be like, it was a white woman, not the brown women, who were on the shift.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And we notice, because we were those kids and we saw those people.

Yanelyn Perez

Exactly, and it's the thing with representation. Another thing that motivates me is that I want to be in a position where I can be representation for students like that. I want people to be like- I'm thinking about being a researcher, and can see someone who looks like them actively doing the job, and have the inspiration. Like she can do it, I could do it, too. That's again, the whole thing with representation in the field, because you can't really see yourself succeed. You can't really see yourself in the space, if you just don't see yourself. So that's my second motivation. Macro aggressions.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I love that. I mean, the sad reality is that's just one of many. It's just the one thing about, as you get advanced further, you'll learn to better navigate those and to kind of advocate for yourself. Eventually, you'll be in certain positions of power that you'll be able to advocate for yourself and for others. It's kind of nice to be able to pave the path and lift others as you climb.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, and that's why I'm also very excited about grad school too, because again, postdocs and grad students helped me get to where I am. The professors too, but mostly the grad students and postdocs had a hand in teaching me research, teaching me this and that, guiding me to certain things. And I want to do that for students as well, especially underrepresented students because we don't get enough resources.

Yanelyn Perez

If I can provide that for a couple of students while I'm here for six years, I feel like that would really just be amazing. That's also another motivation for me to get through this coursework, get through managing very difficult things at the same time and just learning to be the best version of myself. So I can provide this output and this help for people who want to go into research, who don't have the resources and are looking for them.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm really proud of you.

Yanelyn Perez

I'm hoping that I can pull it off.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh you will. You've got a strong enough reason and your heart is in there. I can sense it. So I have no doubt. I firmly believe in you.

Yanelyn Perez

I hope that grad school doesn't wipe me out.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know, you are already doing all of the right things. You're advocating for yourself. You're reaching out. You're asking for help. You're developing a support system. All those things are gonna help you get by.

Yanelyn Perez

For the last part of your question- what advice I have for undergrads- honestly, what I've been kind of mentioning is just a support group. You can do whatever you want to do. I was told many times my freshman year to switch out of my majors by professors.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You're not the only one. I hear that time and time again among our McNair STEM students.

Yanelyn Perez

I was told by the bio major advisor that I weaseled my way into a class. I was told by my chem professors to switch the majors because I got a C on a midterm. There's so many things that are gonna be obstacles, and it sucks that we have to experience some of the most.

Yanelyn Perez

You're gonna see your classmates succeed while you're still struggling, and you're gonna wonder, what's wrong with you? And you're gonna wonder like, what's this and that? Why can't I do that? Or why can't I get an A? I've been trying so hard. It's super disheartening. But at the end of the day, you can do whatever you want to do. If you fail a class, you fail a class. I failed my classes as an undergrad, and I'm still in a PhD program.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And look at you. Nice, I love that.

Yanelyn Perez

Failure isn't the end. You fail a class- pick yourself up, keep going. You find that you have difficulties in one thing specifically, go out and look for help with that. Again, having the support system is honestly what made the four years so much easier for me, because I could go to my friends and be like, I'm struggling with this. I don't know what to do. And they would be like, well, have you tried going to CLAS for this class? I'm like, I didn't know it was offered. Have you talked to the professor? Have you reached out to the grad students?

Yanelyn Perez

You're going to struggle. That's just the thing with all STEM classes, especially when you're not resourced enough to do well in them. You're just going to struggle, and that's the reality of it. Everyone struggles. I think that's also a thing I needed to hear too, because if you think you're struggling on your own, it feels heavier for some reason. You feel like you're not doing well.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Or you personalize it. You think there's something wrong with you.

Yanelyn Perez

Exactly. But when you talk to people, when you realize how everyone is struggling- it's just some people have more resources than you do. Once you can acknowledge that, I feel like you will be able to succeed. Do not listen to people when they say, you're not going to be able to pass this. You're not going to do this, you're not going to do that. You're the only person who can say that to yourself.

Yanelyn Perez

I have experiences where my boss at work would also say, I didn't want to promote you because you didn't come from a good school. And I know you're probably going to struggle in OChem, so I don't want to promote you. Stuff like that. It's like I would just let that fuel the spite in me and just do better. Because I'm like, if you think I'm gonna do bad, I'm gonna do good just to spite you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I love that.

Yanelyn Perez

I'm a very spiteful person, I guess.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Use it as fuel.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah. But that's the thing. It's gonna be difficult. There's no sugarcoating it. If you're blessed to have a photographic memory, God bless you. But if you need to study relentlessly, it's going to be really difficulty. Especially being a child of immigrants, your parents aren't going to support you. Or coming from a school that wasn't that great with developing your study sets- you're gonna struggle.

Yanelyn Perez

So just realizing that you're not alone in the struggle, and that other people's input doesn't really matter as much as your own input- that's what got me through my four years. I didn't listen to the weasel comment or to my background comment or switch out of the major comments. I said, I'm going to keep going and I'm going to graduate.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

We should have a database or repository or some sort of Google forum where I can just send it out to all the students who are underrepresented in STEM, and have them write in, type in all the microaggressions. Because they stay with them. That's the thing about people who make racist, sexist, just ableist- all the things, all those comments to you, is that for them, they just say it in passing. They don't think about it. And for you, it stays. I have a bad memory. But those comments, I remember them verbatim

Yanelyn Perez

Because they fuel your spite. That's the thing. I remember all these comments, and I remember feeling super awful about them. Again, like you said, when the people make them, they're just making them. They're not thinking twice about the effects they have. I also had a friend of mine who was like, well, I'm not going to do good in this class, like our boss said, because I'm stupid. And I remember being like, that's not true. Why would you say that? She's like, well, if he keeps mentioning it- that I didn't go to that high school, or that my parents didn't care enough about me to do college tours and stuff. So I'm gonna assume I'm not going to do good in this class.

Yanelyn Perez

That's a way of internalizing those comments. I feel like you will get those comments a bit throughout your research career, especially being a woman of color. Just whatever field you're at, you're gonna get these comments. They're gonna be annoying, and they're gonna hurt. They're gonna make you feel boggled down and everything. But just acknowledging your self worth- which can take a lot of years to build up- it's literally the most effective thing you can have against those comments.

Yanelyn Perez

Which again, you get in turn from having a support system and kind of figuring out how to navigate this little maze that is academia, which is awful. But yeah, I remember all of those comments. There are so many that sometimes stay at the back of my head. And I'm just like, I'm gonna prove you wrong.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Right. You are- you have already, and you continue to do it.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah. So that's just my advice, just believe in what you want to do. Even though it sounds really cheesy- I think it does. It's just the most effective thing. If you let other people's comments bring you down, if you let this expectation of yourself bring you down, you're letting it bring you down. I think if you want to, there's always different and alternative paths to get where you want. That's just my recommendation. Just be sturdy like a tree, and don't let anything move you around.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You have so many good quotes. I might pull out some quotes and use them in the description of this episode. You just shared so many really good quotes. Oh, my goodness, you're full of so much knowledge.

Yanelyn Perez

I'm telling you, I'm so much very heated about this. I feel like it's always just really difficult, just in general. And I feel bad that people who are gonna be from similar backgrounds, we have to go through all these issues. It's just disheartening, because in ten years, this issue is still probably going to exist. I don't see academia or university policies changing. So its just a very heated topic. And if I can give any sort of advice or anything, it just makes me happy.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Well, thank you so much Yanelyn for sharing, for just being open and honest about your experiences. I know a lot of folks are gonna relate to it, and are gonna learn a lot. I'm pretty sure they'll be inspired too. I don't even know if you have anything like academic Twitter or anything public. If anybody wanted to reach out to you, is there a way for them to reach out?

Yanelyn Perez

I can leave my email, my academic email. I'm supposed to make a academic website soon.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Okay, share with me your email. I'll just kind of put it out there for some of the listeners. If they're interested in reaching out to you, I'll have them email me at gradschoolfemtoring@gmail.com, and then I'll give them your email if that works.

Yanelyn Perez

Yeah, I can send you my email. Hopefully, if I do start up the website thing soon, I'll just send you that as well. I'm terrified of doing that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You don't have to, you know, it's early. It's only your first year.

Yanelyn Perez

No, my PI is like you know, you should have a presence. I'm like, [word].

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know what? Actually, we're working with new grad mentors and offered a position to someone in EEMB on campus, and they have a really cool website. So shoot me an email, I'll send you a link.

Yanelyn Perez

Wait is this Xochitl?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Well Xochitl too, actually. Xochitl and this new person- I'm not gonna say the name because I'm waiting for them to accept the offer.

Yanelyn Perez

Oh, okay.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Xochitl and this new person both have really cool websites, so I'll send them to you. I'll send them your way, a sample. It's kinda nice to see samples. That reminds me, I have to actually update mine because it's kind of outdated. But thank you Yanelyn.

Yanelyn Perez

Thank you for having me. It was an honor, and it's really good catching up with you, too.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes, same.