59: Early Career Moves: Applying for Non-Tenure Track Jobs

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome, everyone. This is Dra. Yvette. I'm actually recording on a weekend, which is why you're seeing me like this, with no makeup and my weekend gear. Today, I'm going to be talking to you about early career moves- how to apply to non tenure track jobs, when you're right out of undergrad or right out of grad school applying to jobs.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Before I get to that topic, I wanted to mention just a few updates- what's going on with me, what's going on with the podcast. One thing that I'm starting to do more, which I'm really looking forward to, is having special guests. And I do have actually a link- if you go to my Instagram page, I have a link tree. If you go there, there's a link to the consent form if you want to be a guest on the podcast.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You don't have to feel like you're an expert, or like you know everything to come on the podcast. I know I myself am not an expert, per se. I have knowledge and I share my knowledge, and everybody who listens to the podcast has their own set of knowledge and experiences. If there's anything that you're interested in speaking on, you're more than welcome to come on as a guest. Just fill out that consent form. I'll reach out to you and we'll schedule something. I already have a couple things lined up, which I'm excited for.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

We're gonna have someone talking about being a woman in STEM, a woman of color in the STEM field. We're going to have someone talking about ethical chisme in grad school. We might even have someone - I'm looking into asking someone to speak on the topic of financial literacy. That's come up a lot for my students and listeners. So that's one update- guest speakers.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

The other thing that's new that you might have noticed is that now I'm recording my episodes on Zoom. That way you have both the audio and the visual, and transcripts. You have the subtitles available on YouTube. Like I mentioned earlier, it's just an effort to make the information more accessible.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Lastly, one thing I'm starting to do- little by little, so don't expect a lot- but I am starting to create digital products and adding them to an Etsy shop. I'm just thinking about things that I wish that I could have had access to when I was an undergrad that would have helped me in the process of applying to grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

For the first product that I worked on, it's calendar that's going to help you apply to grad school. What it does is it has a month to month from June to May, and it tells you- it has a to do list of what to do each month to prepare for and apply for grad school. I know that when I applied it felt really overwhelming, and I just really wanted someone to tell me, okay. This is what you do, this is when you do it. I even included episode topics. So I included in this month, you do X, Y, and Z. For the topic of x, listen to the episode X for more details.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If you're interested in that calendar on applying to grad school, you can check it out on my Etsy shop. Again, the links are all on the link tree available on my Instagram page. I'm also going to be adding that to my website. So if you go to my website or you go to my IG page, you'll find it there.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Now to the topic of today. This was a special request from a listener. I've had it on my list of things to talk about, and I'm finally getting to it. Thank you so much to the individual who requested this. What do you do when you're thinking about applying for jobs?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Maybe you're an undergrad, and you're taking a gap year to get some work experience before you apply to grad school. Or maybe you are a grad student fresh out of grad school, and you decided you're not going to be applying to tenure track jobs. You're trying to land your first job out of grad school. What to do?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If you haven't graduated yet, and you're still a student- you're still an undergrad, you're still a grad student. Here are a few things I think you should do. I encourage you to get a part time job or an internship. Ideally, a paid internship. I'm not a big fan of unpaid internships. I'm not a big fan of unpaid labor in general.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But get a job, get an internship, so that you can acquire some hands on skills in whatever field you're interested in. I'm going to use myself as an example. When I was a grad student, I worked part time as a research mentor. I also worked part time as a scholarship advisor.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

In those settings, I was able to learn how to create workshops and present them. I was able to take on projects so that I learned how to create websites and update websites, or website management. I learned about how to utilize social media and social media marketing. I also as a grad student, believe it or not, I was asked to sit in on the selection committee to select the incoming Mellon Mays fellows. That was really insightful, to get to review applications and then select students in the incoming cohorts.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So if you are in these positions, I would encourage you to think about- what is it that you want to get out of it? And how can I advocate so that I can get these skill sets during your time there? For instance, if you you are a graduate mentor, and in your position, there's no possibility for you to- or it hasn't been presented as an opportunity for you- to be part of a selection committee.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Maybe you can ask, inquire. Notify your supervisor and let them know- I'm interested in some professional development. One of the things I'm interested in is learning how to review and select applications. Would it be possible for me to be part of the selection committee this year?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Or even as an undergrad- I have one student who works part time for a research center. She's a student peer, and she was actually able to interview and hire another peer. Because she has had the experience doing that, her supervisor told her that it was okay for her to be in charge of hiring the next person. Obviously, with her supervisor there, but she was still part of that process. She told me it was very interesting to be on the other side of things and to be interviewing someone else for the first time, because she's only ever been interviewed before. That was really a great learning experience for her.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That actually also happened in my office with a grad mentor. We had a grad mentor who was leaving, graduating. She got a new job, a wonderful opportunity for her, and so we knew we needed to replace her. She went ahead and asked me if it was possible for her to be in the selection committee to choose the person that would replace her.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I thought that was a great thing, a great opportunity for her. We did go ahead and move forward with that. And I kind of talked her through the process and the things that I look for- the strengths, challenges, interview questions. Why I do the things that I do, how I came up with that process, and obviously got her feedback and her input. We were able to hire someone fabulous, who is now our current grad mentor in our office.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Definitely think about- what are the skills that you're going to need? And how can you acquire them in the job or internship that you get before you land your full time job? That's going to help you. That helped me a lot with landing my first full time job out of grad school was having that- all of those skills. I wasn't just relying on the research experience and my teaching, TAing experience. I actually had hands on experience in an office setting, in a research center, and in the scholarship center doing that kind of work. Those are the things you should do if you're still an undergrad, if you're still in grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Now, let's say you're wrapping things up, and you're getting ready to apply. Before you start applying, I strongly encourage you to schedule a few informational interviews. What are informational interviews? That's when you reach out to an individual who's in a position that you're interested in, and you contact them and ask for a few minutes of their time. You ask them a few questions that will help you in learning more about their position.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You can ask them, what does a day in the life of someone in this position look like? How is it that they got to where they're at? Asking about their professional trajectory. You can ask them for advice. What kind of advice would they give to someone applying into a similar position? Or what are some of the characteristics, qualities, skills that they look for in candidates?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You can even ask about a salary range. I know talking about money is very awkward and uncomfortable. I certainly am not telling you to ask them what they make. But you can say- and if you hear my baby, that's my baby teething. As I mentioned, I'm a mother scholar. But anyway, going back- you can actually ask about the salary range. You can say, what is the typical salary range for individuals in this field, or for entry level positions or for mid level positions? Just so that way, you can get a sense of what the salary range is in that career, beginning to middle. So, entry level, mid level, senior level positions.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Then, of course- very important as you wrap up that informational interview- you want to let them know that you're actively or currently applying. You know, thank you so much for your time. I would really appreciate it if you see anything, to send jobs my way. This is how networking works. If you develop a really good rapport with them, they're going to remember you, and they're gonna say, oh, I talked to that one person. Let me send them this job ad.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And you might get a job ad for a position that you wouldn't have otherwise found. Maybe it wasn't posted on the big databases. Maybe it wasn't available for an extended period of time, so it was really helpful to have them send it to you directly, or to have them as someone you know. Because then if you know them, then you can say in your letter, I found out about this position through so and so.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Then all of a sudden, it's like you have that connection to that person who has a direct link to the position or to the campus etc. So networking helps. Informational interviews help. And don't just do it once. Do it a couple of times. It is hard to reach out. You are gonna feel like- you may feel like you are bothering individuals.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I know I get like that. I worry about that sometimes, but you're not asking for too much of their time. It could be just 15 minutes. It could be half an hour. I wouldn't ask for more than half an hour of their time. Half an hour is more than enough time for you to get the information that you need from them.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Then lastly, another thing to do is after telling them, I am actively applying for jobs. If there's anything you recommend for me to prep for, if you see any jobs, please send them my way. And if there's anyone else that you recommend I talk to, please let me know. Then you're asking them to refer you to someone else to talk to. That's also very helpful, because then you know who else you're going to talk to next. Keep that in mind.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Informational interviews are really helpful. They help you get the ball rolling. They can help keep you accountable, because then you're telling people you're applying, and so you almost feel obligated to follow through with what you're saying. That's the first thing I want to say.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

The next thing has to do with the topic of salary range that I mentioned earlier. When you're applying to jobs, especially if you're still applying to jobs in higher education- they might be non tenure track but still in higher ed. I'm using that example because that's what I know. A lot of times job ads may not tell you what the starting salary is. And that's really frustrating, because then you're applying to a job and you have no idea that you can even pay your bills with what you might make if you get that job.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So one thing I want you to do is, in preparation for that- one, figure out what is the salary range for this position, for this career track that you're on. And also figure out what is the minimum that you are willing to make. You want to have a set number of like, what's the minimum that you would make to be able to pay your bills? This is where it's important to have a budget and figure out- how much do I need to make to at the very least survive?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Let's say the minimum you need is $2000 to survive, and you multiply that by 12. So you need $24,000. You know you're not looking for a job that's $24,000. I'm pulling out my calculator. Keep in mind when you get full time jobs, you have to pay for benefits and you have to pay taxes and that takes out 1/3 of your income.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yes, you make 30k- all of a sudden, you're only taking home 20k You make 60k- all of a sudden, you're only taking home 40k. So if you know you need $24,000 a year, $24,000 plus 1/3, plus 30%. Okay, you need to make at least 31k. That's the least. I would say even more than that. That way you can save up, have a nest egg. If you have to pay for loans or what not, you can have that cushion.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Figure out what is the minimum that you're willing to make to survive, because you don't want to end up like I did my first job out of grad school. I thought, I'm making way more than I did as an undergrad and as a grad student. Then when I got my first paycheck, and they slashed one third of my paycheck for benefits and for taxes, and then I counted for all these other things, like my new loan payment and childcare. All of a sudden, I was in the negative, and I freaked out. I did end up having to incur credit card debt until I landed my next job, which had higher pay. So figure out that minimum number, and don't accept anything less than that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's why it's important to also find out what is the salary range for individuals in the position you're applying for. That way, you know if someone is not paying you equitably. Again, I'm telling you this, because these are things that I wish that I knew when I applied for my first and my next position. It's really hard to keep moving forward when you realize that you're not being paid equitably. And this comes up a lot for people of color, for women, for women of color.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I know that's happened to me and continues to happen to me. That's why I advocate for my students. And I'm advocating for myself, just to make sure that no matter what, you're making pay that both covers your bills, and that is in line with what other people make in that field. So salary range, figuring that out. Figuring out what's the minimum that you need and that you will accept is very important.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Another thing that's very important that you want to keep in mind, especially for the Cali folks. I know y'all are listening to me, especially SoCal, NorCal folks. Y'all are listening to me. LA- I know at least one fourth of my audience is from LA. I don't know what it is, but y'all keep listening. Maybe it's because I'm from LA, even though I don't live in LA anymore.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Anyway, cost of living. You want to take into account the cost of living in that area, and keep that in mind when you figure out what your minimum amount is. Because if you live in a high cost of living area like I do, it doesn't matter if you make a lot of money, or what may seem like a lot to you. If cost of living takes up the majority of your paycheck, it's really hard to plan long term, to sustainably plan for yourself or your family, for your retirement. All these other things that you want to keep in mind for your future. So yes, cost of living is a big one.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Thinking about also location. You want to identify whether or not you are willing to move outside of your current location for that job. Are you staying in one location, are you willing to apply widely? That's then going to impact how you're going to do your search for jobs. If you're doing a job search that's location specific, then I recommend looking for- again, it depends on the career track that you're on.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But going back, let's say you're applying to jobs in higher ed. You want to look for universities in the area. You want to look for community colleges in the area. You want to look for nonprofits in the area. You want to look for companies in the area that are aligned with your values, with your career goals, with your long term goals. But also that are again, in that area.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Perhaps you might not just do a search on the big sites like indeed, or Inside Higher Ed, or the Chronicle of Higher Education. Maybe you might do your search very specific. Websites for California State Universities, for specific universities- UC's, University of California specific. Basically, if you know there's an region- let's say, Chicago for instance. You know you want to live in Chicago. You know- I want to get a job there. Why do I say that? Because I at one point wanted to do that. Then you'll look for what's out there. UIC is out there. University of Chicago is out there. DePaul University is out there. Close by is Urbana Champaign- that's not Chicago but it's in Illinois. Northwestern- again, not in Chicago, but in Evanston.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So you want to look for jobs in the specific university sites. Some jobs are only posted in university sites and not in the larger database, which is why it's good to double check. Not just rely on the big databases, but also check the specific hiring sites for the universities and companies, nonprofits and so on that you're interested in. If you're applying widely, then you can go ahead and check LinkedIn and check Indeed, and Monster and all the big sites as well, because they will have access to a bigger range.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

The next thing I want to say is, please don't hesitate to ask for help. It's very overwhelming to apply for jobs, especially when you're doing it for the first time, especially if you haven't done it before, especially if you're first gen and you're kind of doubting yourself and your skills and your abilities. Ask for help. Have someone review your resume or your CV. It could be a friend. It could be a mentor. It could be someone that does this for a living, that you hired to do this for you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Make sure that when you're working on your materials, that you tailor them as much as possible. It is a lot of work, but the more you tailor, the more you make the argument that you're a good fit for that job, for that position, for the culture of that space. And the higher your chances are of getting an interview and getting the job. When you're tailoring, especially for jobs, make sure that you mirror the language. Make sure that you're using the jargon that they use. You want to speak the way that they speak in terms of the language, of the culture of the setting.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If you see certain skills, certain things that they want, and you know you have that skill, you want to mirror it. Use language that matches the way that they describe that skill. So what I mean by that is, you're reframing the academic skills that you gain in undergrad and grad school so that it matches the job.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Maybe you might be tempted to say, I facilitated one hour discussion sections as a teaching assistant. You could instead say, I presented complex concepts to general audiences of 20 to 100, if you were TA-ing for a small or a large lecture. Instead of saying you have these broad research and teaching skills, you can say that you also have project management skills. You also have public speaking skills. You also have management, like I learned people management, crisis management.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

There's a lot of skills that you gain, both as an undergrad and as a grad student. So emphasize them based on what you see from the job as the language that they use, and the skills that they prioritize. Then, like I said earlier, have someone review your materials. And actually another thing. Again, it depends on your comfort level, how close you may be to an individual. But if you're comfortable with doing this- this is something I did as well, especially to folks that I kind of knew that were more acquaintances. They weren't close friends, but they were acquaintances. I knew them, to some extent.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I actually reached out and asked individuals- hi, I noticed that you're doing X, Y, and Z. I'm interested in applying to X, Y and Z. I was wondering if you might be willing to offer some advice, since I'm interested in applying. Or if you might be willing to share sample application materials, any insight you can provide would be very helpful. So you notice how I slipped in, you might be willing to share sample application materials. That's really helpful when you see- just like I say this when applying to fellowships as well, when applying to grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If you can see what a winning statement looks like, if you can see what a job app looks like for someone who got into the job that you want, then you can see- this how they reframed this. This is the skill sets that they gained. Oh, that's the gap that I have that I need to fill, and I can do X, Y and Z in the meantime to fill that. You start to notice some things that maybe may not be clear from the job ad.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So maybe ask a few people, slip it in, give them the opportunity to say yes or no depending on, again, their comfort level too. Maybe they don't feel comfortable sharing their materials and that's completely okay. But they might still give you great advice, or they might still offer to review your stuff. No matter what- any help, take it.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

One last thing I want to say about applying to jobs is to apply to as many positions as you can, within your capacity to do so. In some ways, it is a numbers game. So you just need to keep applying and applying and applying. The good thing about jobs is that they have shorter timelines then applying to say grad school or tenure track positions.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You'll start to hear back relatively soon. You don't have to wait multiple months like in grad school, where you apply in December, you don't find out untill February, March. You're waiting three months, sometimes longer. At least when you apply to jobs, you'll find out- two weeks, maybe four weeks later. It's a quicker timeline. So just keep applying.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

If you don't hear back after a month, you can inquire, get an update on the status of your application. If you get turned down, it doesn't hurt to ask for feedback. I know it's more work on their end for you to ask for tailored feedback, but you know what? You deserve it. Why not ask? I actually- I know it's more work on my end, but I've had individuals ask me why they didn't get into McNair, why they didn't get the graduate mentor position. When they ask I go back, I review their application. I review their interview notes. And I give them a detailed paragraph on their strengths and their challenges and the things that they can do to improve their application or their interview in the future.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So you can always ask for feedback. They may give it to you, they may not. And then I said keep applying, keep applying. Eventually, if you apply enough, the odds will be in your favor and you will land something.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Your first job doesn't have to be the job that you love. It doesn't have to be the job that's going to be your job that you're going to retire in. But maybe it can be your stepping stone job. Maybe it can be the job that's going to help you then get the next job that's going to be the perfect job for you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So yeah, keep applying. See what comes up. Keep networking. Reach out. Get help, and good luck with your search. All right, y'all. I hope you found this helpful. I'll talk to y'all later. Bye.