329: Creative Writing Beyond the MFA with Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estévez

329: Creative Writing Beyond the MFA with Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estévez

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[00:00:00] Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Before we get started, I want to share one of my favorite time saving tools, Descript. I use it to transcribe interviews, generate podcast show notes, create short video clips and record, easy to follow tutorials for my clients. It's also an incredibly helpful tool for grad students and busy professionals.

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Welcome to the award-winning grad school Femtoring podcast. The place for first gen Bipoc to listen in on inclusive grad school stories and learn about personal development and productivity tips. This is Yvette Martinez Vu, a certified [00:01:00] coach, consultant and author, and I will be serving as your Femtoring, providing you with insider knowledge to help you reach your personal and professional goals.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Grad School Femtoring Podcast. This is your host, Doctora Yvette. Today we are talking about navigating and thriving within or outside creative writing programs. So we're talking about all things creative writing, creative writing careers.

Our guest is someone near and dear to me. I'm so excited to have her here today. Her name is Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez, and she's the co-founder of the Muslim Writer Salon. She was the former owner of Booklandia specializing in Spanish and bilingual books. She works [00:02:00] with writers globally through book coaching.

Writing courses and writing retreats. She is from Brooklyn and Oakland, and now living in Portugal. Yes, that's right with her two children. I'm excited to have her today. So welcome to the podcast Maceo.

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Thank you. Thank you. It's so nice to be here.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: You got me a little nervous there,

But I would love for you to tell us a little bit more about you and what you do, how you got to where you are today. So I'm specifically like curious about your journey as a writer. Mm-hmm. And yeah, any, anything you're comfortable sharing tied to that too.

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: No, thank you. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I love talking about this writing and being a writer.

I, you know, I started writing when I was a child and in, in, in college. [00:03:00] I, I took a creative writing course and I went to school in Massachusetts and I was like one of the few Latinas in the, in the, in the school in the college, but also like one of the few women of color in the program.

And then I suggested to my professor of like. Here are some books that you should be using in your course instead of all these white authors. And since then, that's what I've been doing. I've been like writing and also giving these suggestions. Of like what other books professors and teachers of writing should be utilizing in their classroom.

And I did a master's degree in writing in Consciousness. It was in San Francisco. It was New College of California. I moved from Brooklyn to Oakland for that and then lived in Oakland for 17 years. I struggled with grad school. [00:04:00] And, you know, I struggled going because I felt like I needed something practical, you know, like I was in the nonprofit world.

I should have been doing nonprofit management and stuff like that. But then I went to I decided no, I have to do what I've always loved doing and that's writing. So, I did that and I went in doing creative nonfiction and left doing playwriting. I wrote a play and I toured it in the us. Then I got married, had kids, and didn't write for like a decade.

So, then after moving to Portugal, that's when I started writing again and wanting to build a community because I was lacking that living here. Then I started the Muslim Writer Salon and it's online and it's global, so it fits.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Wow. There's so many things that came up that I feel like I could just ask you to say more about because it'll [00:05:00] resonate with a lot of my listeners.

First, is that, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you felt almost obligated to pursue a master's degree.

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Yes, definitely. Yes.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And then you said, you also said that you struggled in grad school. Were they similar struggles, like tied to undergrad where you were one of few, or was it related to other things?

Like what were some of those struggles that came up?

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: In grad school? Yeah, in grad school. Well, yeah, I, I did feel like I should go to grad school that go, you know, just having a bachelor's degree wasn't gonna be enough. And I should be specializing in something. And and so my struggles with grad school was a, is just like the course load.

And also having to work like that was like a big thing because it wasn't I wasn't living on campus, you know, I wasn't in a completely new city. I was, you know, you know, navigating that. And also it, it was, it was the same with [00:06:00] I'm, I'm in, in a writing and consciousness program and we're still reading the white cannon, you know, and spending like half of the time dealing with that and then being like, why, why aren't they paying me for this?

And having to deal with that for, for myself and for others, you know, like that was, you know, but yeah, I struggled with the coursework and just, just doing everything at one time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right. That's something I notice a lot among. Students both in college and in grad school, in more quote unquote traditional disciplines where you're expected to learn the quote unquote canon, which basically just means white people's literature.

Yeah. And then at the same time, because you wanting to become a specialist in what. Interests you. You're having to do extra work. You gotta learn the canon, then you gotta learn your subject area expertise. And then if you're working class or low income, you've [00:07:00] gotta work. And not everybody faces those same challenges of having to figure out your finances, having to work.

How in, I'm not sure at what point. You. You didn't have a family yet when you were in your graduate program? No, I didn't. No. No. Okay. But that comes up too for some like folks who are parents. And add to that, the racism, sexism, and all the other microaggressions, it just turns, it compounds into a whole series of struggles that have nothing to do with our potential, right.

Or our capacity. And it's all about systemic issues. All this to say, I wanna transition us to talking about should we go to a, like who should go to a com? Sorry, I'm just like laughing because I feel like the setup here is so strong. But you know, we can talk about the pros and cons. So let's talk about, I.

Thoughts related to creative writing programs. A lot of people feel like they [00:08:00] have to complete a master's degree or the coveted MFA to pursue a creative career of some sort. And so I'm curious about your thoughts based on your lived experience, based on your professional career, everything you do supporting writers globally.

When does it make sense to attend one, if at all? When doesn't it make sense? Is it. Necessary. And again, the pros and cons of pursuing a creative writing program, not necessarily a career, but the program, per se, a

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: program. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I, I will say first that I'm, I'm not an advocate. For creative doing an MFA or an MA in creative writing, I'm not an advocate for that.

So just off the bat, that's my stance on it. And the reason why I feel like especially for bipoc people, like, you are not gonna get the support. Like, I feel you're not gonna get the support that you [00:09:00] need. And there's certain things that are lacking in creative writing programs that writers need, like understanding, like the business of writing.

I. Right. Like that's not really part of it. Like really, like sometimes just like really understanding that and like the networking, you know, like the networking that's needed. The, you know, like how to really build a writing routine, you know, like how to do research and, and, you know, and stuff like that.

So I feel there's, there's that, that's lacking, but there's also, like now versus from when I went to graduate school, there's a variety of, of writing programs. And so, there's ones that are more focused and have like their niche, you know? And there's, right. Rooms that do have professors of color, you know, bipoc professors and that makes a difference.

So if someone was gonna go [00:10:00] into a writing program, it's, it's really thinking about like, why you wanna spend the money and the time to do this. Because for me, how I work best is like, I work best, you know, learning on my own and trying to piece it all together. And and doing it through community. So for me that's, that's very important.

And it's, you know, I thought at that stage that going to graduate school would give me the, you know, those things. But it, it didn't, it is it, not necessarily that it's not gonna do it, but it's just like you really have to find. The right place. So it's like who the professors are, like, do you like their writing?

And looking at the courses, talking to people that were part of a program. Going to, there's the a WP, the American. The association of, of, of writing [00:11:00] programs and there's a conference every year and then you could like, check out all the writing programs there. So if someone really wanted to do that, that would be great.

But I, I feel like the people that do do it, it's because they wanna get into academics. So they wanna be a professor of creative writing, so then you would need an MFA for that. But there's also, you know, other areas that you could go into. So I, I guess like the pros would be, you know, getting, if you're gonna work with a certain writer, if you're gonna work with a professor.

And you like their work and you really wanna hone in on that that you get, let's say a scholarship for, for it, and it's like a free ride. Like, and you could do it. I would, I would do that, you know, then I would be like, okay, I have a goal to do this. And, but I do think that it's kind of like a a money sucker, you know?

And you could invest money in different ways. [00:12:00] And not have it be so much.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I will also say and echo what you, I, I echo the same or I share the same sentiment as you in that I am not a big fan of encouraging graduate school, which is ironic because the work that I do is about supporting people in graduate school, but there are so many instances where it just doesn't make sense.

Mm-hmm. And. For creative programs in particular and also for a lot of master's degree programs, sometimes the return on investment just doesn't make sense. It's just so expensive. Like you said, they're considered the cash cow programs that help to support departments so that they can stay afloat to, so that they can keep the other programs running.

And there's this expectation that you get a professional degree and you're gonna get a professional salary and that. Like I said, going back to the ROI, it's not guaranteed. It's not like they are providing you with jobs right on the [00:13:00] spot, and it's not guaranteed that they're gonna give you access to that coveted network that's gonna land you those contracts, et cetera, that you want.

And so all this to say that just like you said. If you get a scholarship, if there is someone you really wanna work with, if you're interested in pursuing the academic route, and even then I would say proceed with caution because academic careers are very, very hard to pursue even if you do everything right, just because of how the system is built and how it's changing with all the changes in higher ed right now and all the budget cuts.

But in any case, I'm curious for folks who want training, they want support, they want community, they want the skills, they want to network, and they're trying to build up this career and this portfolio. If they've decided, maybe I don't wanna go the MFA route, [00:14:00] what options do they have? I know you mentioned a WP, so aside from attending this conference, finding out about other programs, are there other things that they can do?

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Yeah, definitely. So, okay. I feel like so old school with this, but like I get the magazine poets and writers and that was like my first you know, like. Writing magazine that I got like in my twenties, and I felt like, okay, like this is, this is me being a writer. But it, like, it's, it's so amazing and it has a lot of like articles and it has a lot of resources and it also has like grants calls for submissions, contests, and then it has information on different writing courses and and stuff like that.

So there's poets and writers, and then there's also like. So many writing communities now, like it's, it's really amazing. Like, so yes, I, I, I built the, the Muslim Writer Salon and it's for [00:15:00] Muslim writers, but I'm also the community manager for the Sanctuary and it's for Bipoc women writers. And then there's.

Various online writing communities as well, like, depending, like you could put in like, you know, like you could put like a DHD and writer and then like, you'll get something up, you know? And then there's also local writing centers, so, and other online classes. So I, I just. And then there's Substack.

So, you know, like Substack has a really great you know, community that you could just find over notes or there's Substack pages that are of different writing communities. So there's, there's really so much, there's really so much out there. It is just kind of like figuring out like what you wanna focus on, you know, and do it like little by [00:16:00] little to not overwhelm yourself.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: That was what I was about to say, is that if anything, sometimes having too many options without a set. Structure mm-hmm. Can discourage people and that's why that they then go to the graduate programs. 'cause they're like, oh, there's a curriculum. And I just do as I'm told, I know what to do, when to do it.

Yes. Versus having to create your own path. Yes. Which is ironically, like, that's actually what you need to do to learn to be a good writer as and to make a living off of it. Because entrepreneurship is very similar in that respect. But is there like. Are, do you have any tips for how to discern, you know, it be, you know, when you're going through and looking at different communities and trying to come up with different things to do to develop as a writer?

Like, how do you figure out what's right for you, or even when it's necessary to build a community? In your case, you did build a community, so yeah, maybe you can talk a little bit about [00:17:00] that too.

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Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Yeah. Like, for, for me, build like what I, I built a community for a couple of reasons. Like one is like after leaving Bo Landia in the US and, you know, and seeing how vibrant the, you know, the Latina and Spanish speaking, you know, community is in writing.

I also felt like it was needed with Muslims and also like understanding that like there's, there's so many different types of Muslims from, like, it, it is like a global religion. And then like there's different, you know, variations of how people practice and how people, you [00:19:00] know, write, whether they write about it or not.

And so for me it's just like everyone has a unique voice and everyone should be supported in that. So I wanted to create a space where, where that was, you know, part of it. And really like figuring out like what what's really important to you, you know, like, and where you would feel that you could grow.

The most. And so it would be like connecting with other writers, you know, whether it's a friend or just, you know, like online and just connecting and seeing, you know, what they do, you know, going, if, if locally like people, there's like open mics or at the library, you know, there's different things like that.

But it's, you know, like a lot of it really with writing and being a writer is, you know, really developing your mindset. And developing that, like, you can do this, that like this is, you know, [00:20:00] if, if, if you're writing it's because you're meant to be writing. You know, and you know, and also understanding that your first draft, you know, your, you know, there's gonna be some sentences that are just horrible.

You know, you're not gonna share them, that's fine. You know, like you have a first draft and it's not gonna be exactly how you want it to be, and that's fine. You know, the whole thing is about getting it out there, and it's just like. So in community it's helpful because you're with other people that have similar experiences, whether they're on the same, same as you or ahead or you know, I don't wanna say ahead or behind, but like in different, in different places.

But one of the things is like as writers, we know like what it feels like to. To write, you know, how amazing it is it how it feels like to be scared to show your writing, you know, like the fear of rejection, like [00:21:00] how to turn it around, like all, all these things. So, you know, we see writing and writers as doing something by themselves, but no one really does it by themselves.

You know, like they have people supporting them in some sort of way.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right. And going back to the mindset piece, that stood out to me a lot for a couple of reasons. Like one I've shared, I think I've shared on the podcast before, that whenever I share my writing, it feels like I'm a nudist. It feels like such a.

Vulnerable and sometimes even intimate thing to share with others. And then two, I know that for a lot of folks, especially if they are first gen, you know, first gen in college or first gen in the US or just like the first to pursue this type of career path, that imposter phenomenon kicks in because maybe they don't have access again to the network or to familial [00:22:00] support to help them navigate these challenges.

And then of course, there's. Just the fear of, fear of being perceived, the fear of not being good enough, the fear of, you know, what if this doesn't work out. And so I, I know this, the mindset piece is not something that you can just work on overnight, but do you have any insights just to help, especially either.

New or emerging writers or youth in general who are interested in pursuing a creative writing career, just some insights for them to help them to work on that mindset piece.

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Yeah, I like, I really enjoy reading about other writers and their process and because I learned so much about how they've done things, you know, and how they've navigated this aspect.

So I would [00:23:00] encourage writers to do that. Because then they will, then they will see that, you know, like you'll, you'll hear the same thing over and over again. Every time. It doesn't matter if I wrote 20 books every time I, I, I write a new book. It's like I'm starting over again. You know, like after he, after like hearing that like, like three or four times, I was like, wow, that's like.

That's really true. Like it's, it's something that keeps on go, you know, keeps on happening and then, you know, just like learning, just, just treating it as like. You know, like not thinking so much about the end product, but thinking about like, the process and and trying to enjoy the process and trying to, you know, think of it as like, you know, like the more, the more I do it, like how do I feel?

Do I feel I. Happy. Do I feel joyful? Do I, you know, like how do I feel after doing it? Okay. I wanna keep on having [00:24:00] that feeling. So going back, going back to that and just understanding that like having fears and having doubts is normal. You know, like it's just part of it. It is part of it. So it's just like acknowledging it.

And being like, okay, it, you know, I'm feeling this right now. I am not gonna let it stop me, you know, and voicing it. I, I actually through the Muslim writer salon. We have like a weekly a weekly co course that's that's about the writing journey, you know, and it's basically about building the practice.

You know, like it's not even craft, I don't do anything with craft. It's more about building your practice, talking about what comes up, talking about fears, you know, talking about your inner critic. We, we have like an exercise where we like, name the, our inner critic and then have a conversation with them, [00:25:00] you know, so, and see like, hey, like, okay, I don't like when you do this thing.

So this is what I'm gonna tell you now. And just like acknowledging that, or like, we have an exercise too of like, asking your writing project what it needs from you. To finish, to work on it, you know, and that, that exercise is pretty deep. Like it's, it's really, it's really helped a lot of, because it's just like really, you know, eye-opening.

So, so it's just like, for me it's just like the, the radical acceptance that this is just how, how it is. And you know, like some days are gonna be better than others, but I'm just gonna keep on going.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Since you mentioned the topic of process mm-hmm. May I ask a little bit about what your, just like a sneak peek into what your writing process looks like? Yeah. [00:26:00] Or

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: is that too much? If it's too much, that's okay. No, no, no. It's, it's actually really cool because, because I, I teach this, right? Because I'm, I'm constantly talking about it.

Then I have to analyze myself too, you know, so, so when I realize what I do instead of, because sometimes we just do things right and we don't even realize what we're doing. So, okay, so a lot of times I. I think about something, you know, like I have an idea. I have an idea that I wanna write about, and then I start I listen to music and I start cleaning.

Really? Yes.

And while I'm listening to music and I'm cleaning the, it's, it's playing in my head, like I'm writing it in my head. So I'm, I'm very visual. So there, it's like, it's kind of like a movie. So I like all the scenes start coming together. So once I feel like, [00:27:00] okay. And, and it happens for a while, so I do that for a little bit.

Sometimes I have to go for a walk, you know, so I, I'm kind of like developing it in my, in my mind, and then I go to the page and then I just start writing. So it's, it's fun. It's actually, it's, it's a lot of fun because it's, it's, it's not just on the page, you know, like, it's just like I'm cultivating it for, for a little bit and it's like.

Getting there, and then I'm able to write. There are some times that I'm just like, oh, I have this feeling and I just get on the computer, you know, and I, and I start writing. But then it's just like, oh, what happens? You know, like, then there's like a, a pause, which is fine too, you know, sometimes I pause and, and I go back to it the next day.

I like, wait, I go back to it the next day, then, you know, keep on writing. But my, the most fun I have even if it's deep, like deep stuff, is when, when [00:28:00] I, I let it go in my mind first. I.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: That reminds me of how I come up with my best ideas in the shower. It's just doing that kind of, when you're not really thinking about your, what you're doing, so it allows you to then think about something else and yes.

I don't even know what that I, I'm sure there's a science behind it of like, when we're in a more relaxed state, we are more creative. Mm-hmm. And that's why actually, I don't think procrastination is a bad thing. Mm-hmm. It doesn't always have to be because. A certain level of procrastination actually increases creativity.

I remember reading about that and thinking, oh, that's awesome. So I'm not always, this is why all my best ideas come up when I'm avoiding something. So in any case, well, I love hearing that. I love hearing a little bit about your process. I'm curious if there was a question though that maybe I didn't get to ask you or something that you wanted to make sure you wanted to address in the [00:29:00] podcast today?

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: I'm trying to think of your questions and

yeah, no, I, I just yeah. For me, with, with like creative writing and creative writing programs like. I feel like there's a lot that needs that is needed for writers and just just let yourself figure it out, you know? Let yourself explore and, and see what, what you enjoy. And it doesn't always have to, you know, a, a lot of writers write in different genres.

You know, or don't write, like, you know, some writer's like, I'll, I'll just do novels, but I'm never gonna write poetry, and that's fine. You know, like not, you know, just like really seeing what flows and sticking to that. Like, I, I, I like whatever it is, just, just, just being more exploratory.[00:30:00]

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Any other final words of advice? Do you wanna offer it to our audience members who, especially I'm thinking about the folks who are really wanting to pursue this as a, as a career, not just not, not that there's, there's nothing bad with pursuing it as a hobby. Mm-hmm. But some folks are like, no, I, I want this to be how I make a living.

Any insights for, for those folks?

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Yeah. Just being aware of, you know, the business of being a writer. So. It's, it's, it's difficult to get into it. It doesn't mean that you can't, you know, and if you are a creative writer and you're working on novels and stuff like that it's, you know, it's, it's.

There's a process in getting an agent, there's a process in getting a book deal. So, so it's just learning about that and just keep on going, you know, submitting your [00:31:00] work to different literary magazines, you know, there's, there's a process for that. And it's just like, it's, it, it, it takes time and it has to be like something that you wanna do and it takes time.

And you also have to think about like, what are the other things? I can do my income because, you know, writing a book like you don't, not everyone gets like a, a huge advance. Right away. So, you could be one of them, but it's, it's not always the case. And so it's just learning, learning the business of writing and understanding that it's, it's like one of those things that you can make a living, but it might be like, okay, I, I, I'm gonna like do some.

Copywriting for a while, you know, like, I'm gonna do my writing in, in different ways, you know, or ghost writing and stuff. So like, it's just figuring that out and, and seeing, you know, what works for you. [00:32:00]

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: What that reminds me of is that as. What, what I'm hearing is that becoming a creative writer and pursuing that as a profession involves, in many ways becoming an entrepreneur and also learning about the industry.

And one of the misconceptions that I remember I had when I was in college was that anybody who published a book was making a lot of money. And I didn't know about the differences between publishing with the trade press, publishing with the hybrid press, publishing with an academic press, or even publishing on your own self-publishing and how there are very different ways that people get paid or not.

And in my case, with publishing, my book is grad school for me. We're, myself and my co-author, we're making pennies per book. And so the way that we're able to even. Earn [00:33:00] something from the book is not from getting people to buy the book, it's actually from what comes up surrounding the book. So book talks, book panels, workshops, et cetera.

And I'm saying this not to highlight myself, I'm saying using this as an example that if you want to pursue this as a career. You're going to want to learn how to monetize in different ways, including in your case. You mentioned the, that copywriting is an option. Some of the, some of the most prominent creative writers out there, that's, that's what they did.

They had a nine to five that was related to the industry, and they also then wrote their books, but they didn't start. You know, generating the big sales until later on. So I wanna echo that. It takes time and it requires learning about business. And it requires also, unfortunately, unfortunately, networking.

But I would say, [00:34:00] you know, if it helps to, to network in a way that feels good for you, or, you know, build community with the right people. Because what I've learned from my own. My own friends and colleagues who are creative writers and do this for a living, is that the field of the writing industry is very similar to academia and.

In all the worst ways, just to keep it real. And so all this to say that like you have to, in your case, like you reminded us, build community and for folks who actually are interested in the Muslim Writers Salon or in any of your other offerings, I'd love for you to tell us more about that, about, you know, about your work, about how folks can connect with you or maybe be part of the communities that you're also part of.

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Yeah. Thank you. So, so I do book coaching and I also do editing. So sometimes [00:35:00] I just help writers. I. Get their ideas in order to write a book. So I work with nonfiction writers and fiction writers both with nonfiction. I work in building a, a book proposal and with fiction writers.

I, I love working with people that have already. Done like a draft and then need to get it better. And then helping them through the process of getting an agent and, and doing that. And so I do that, you know, I do that as, you know, freelance work. And then I am the community manager for the Sanctuary.

And it's by read, write, and Create. And it's for Bipoc Women. And I'm also a part of the Muslim Writer Salon. I'm the co-founder for that and I could give you the links for all, all of those, but you could find us on, on Instagram and Substack as well. I do writing [00:36:00] retreats. I host writing retreats.

I. So, and I also if someone wants to lead, like have a have me come in and do facilitate writing retreats for, for their organization or community, I do that as well.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Love that. So we will make sure to add the links to all of the above in the show notes. And I just wanna thank you for sharing space with us today, sharing your insights.

Oh my gosh. I, I, I, I've missed you, so I'll say I met. Maceo in my time in Portugal, and I'm so glad that we get to reconnect in this way. And, you know, sending you all the good vibes in hopes that you know, folks, the right folks will connect with you and reach out to support your work.

Maceo Nafisah Cabrera Estevez: Thank you so much.

Thanks. And I am, I, I love following what you've been doing. It's been a amazing to see your journey, so thank [00:37:00] you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Thank you.

​thanks so much for listening. If you liked what you heard, here are three ways you can support the show. The first is to make sure you're subscribed and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. The second way is to get your copy of my free resource kit linked in my show notes. This kit includes tools, playlists on all things grad school, productivity, and personal development.

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