323: Celebrating One Year of Is Grad School For Me?: Impact, Lessons, and What’s Next

323: Celebrating One Year of Is Grad School For Me?: Impact, Lessons, and What’s Next

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Welcome to the award-winning grad school Femtoring podcast. The place for first gen Bipoc to listen in on inclusive grad school stories and learn about personal [00:02:00] development and productivity tips. This is Yvette Martinez Vu, a certified coach, consultant and author, and I will be serving as your Femtoring, providing you with insider knowledge to help you reach your personal and professional goals.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Grad School Femtoring Podcast. This is your host, Doctora Yvette. Today we are celebrating the one year anniversary of Is Grad School For Me?, book that I co-authored with my dear friend and femtor, Dr. Chavez Garcia. We're gonna talk about the impact, the lessons we've learned and what's coming next for the book and for us.

So, yeah, let's get into the topic today. We [00:03:00] have my guest who's a returning guest, my co-author, Doctora Miroslava. She is a professor of history at the University of California Santa Barbara. She's also the faculty director of the UCSB McNair Scholars Program. And she is the author of Migrant Longing, States of Delinquency and Negotiating Conquest. And of course, she's here to talk about is grad school for me, the book that we're celebrating today. Welcome back on the podcast, mi.

Miroslava: Thank you so much for having me, Yvette, really wonderful, and I was looking forward to this all week.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Aw. Yay. I always look forward to meeting with you. It's, it's almost like I, sometimes I forget, you know, we can get caught up in our own struggles, day-to-day stuff, and when I see you, I'm always just like, excited to talk to you or to vent with you or to share any new, news, insights, what's going [00:04:00] on.

So with relation to the book, I'm curious if there's anything you wanna share about yourself. I know folks can go back to listen to episode 248. That's the episode you were on where you talked about the topic of writing and publishing academic articles. You're an experienced author, I know that a lot of folks have reached out to me to let me know that that episode was especially helpful, including assistant and associate professors. So I appreciate you coming back and I'm curious if there's anything you wanna share with the audience about you, just to give them a refresher or for folks who are new to you and your work, if there's anything else you wanted to share.

Miroslava: Yeah. No. Well, it's wonderful to hear that people have found that that, uh, session or interview, however you wanna call it, that I provided. I really love talking about writing and all of the nuts and bolts and learning about I. How to do it more effectively. Creatively, I've been attending a couple of workshops on our campus, [00:05:00] uh, recently.

One was about how to turn your dissertation into a book and how to get rid of the dissertation, ease the kind of things that are unique to your dissertations and, and how we need to leave those behind or, or learn to identify them and then figure out how to make this more of a book. So, looking at the differences and, and I wanted to go to help my students, but selfishly as well as for myself, and it just gives me motivated when I hear these.

Tips and tricks about how to do that. And so writing is always an evolving practice for myself, and I think most writers would say that. And I just enjoy doing it. And I was realizing that as I've been helping some colleagues, like I really enjoy this part very much of my, of my work, so I'm very fortunate.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah, and you can sense that, I mean. That's one of the things when we do our own talks, we talk about like the mission behind our work and what we really love about our work. And you're someone that I see as like you really dedicated and committed and find a lot of purpose and joy [00:06:00] in the research and the writing process, which is inspiring. I wish that I felt the same way, but

Miroslava: I should say am struggling with my academic. I have a, another big project, well, a project I've been working on for several years and. I was, I've been doing that. Let me read one more article before I get started because I'm not sure what I wanna say. And because it does a consistency at least you know, when you have any topic, I'm not gonna say it's just academic, but you have to be consistent every day because you lose your spot and your train of thought.

And so then you have to kind of redo what you know, versus when you're already in it, you just kind of go back to where you left off. And so, every time I have to stop and, and do work on another project, it's hard to jump back into it. So, yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And it's comforting. I mean, it's comforting to hear from you. You've done it multiple times of not just publishing books, publishing several articles, that even for someone as experienced as you, you still sometimes get stuck or you still sometimes run into some issues and that it's [00:07:00] normal. Yeah.

The Journey of Writing 'Is Grad School For Me?'

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Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: So we're here to talk about the book and I thought it would be fun for us to start with why we wrote the book. I'm not the best at remembering, but I know that we've shared parts of this story when we've given book talks. But I'd love for you to like start us out with why we wrote the book and how we came to, yeah, to working on this project together.

Miroslava: Yeah, I think that for me, it, uh, well first I'll say I saw the work that you were doing right, and how impactful your work was and everything you had done over the years when I met you and when I got to know you after several months and I got to see you went behind the scenes and looked at your actual podcasts, all the transcripts and everything, and I just thought.

That, uh, doing a book would be a different way to provide that information to listeners, your audience, and all these folks out there who needed it. And so I thought it would be really great to be able to. You know, put that information in a digestible format. That would be a guide that would be like what I am [00:08:00] thinking like from A to Z, right?

That they can go there and figure out, you know, why grad is grad school, even a, a, you know, something for me. How would I do that? What would I look at? What do I need to consider? So it kind of was a really, I think, an important tool, uh, that. We both saw that was missing and not available. And I think you saw that even you knew that from day one.

And for us, when we did that literature review, right, looking to see who else had worked on this kind of topic, what else was out there? We found a few things that were similar, but definitely there was a big hole. And I'm always telling people like, don't just do it because there's the big hole. You know, you need to make another claim about why that hole needs to be filled.

But certainly. There's so many people, you know, that we knew that this was gonna reach and so, or the potential to reach. And so those folks are the reasons why we did this. At least for me. I always had like this person in my mind of who I was writing for, and generally it was like a non-traditional student of color.

And so I thought that they're the ones who really need that. They don't have access to institutional support. They don't perhaps [00:09:00] even like one-on-one support. So here's another resource for them that they can access on their own time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right, right. And then for me, when I think about why we wrote the book and how it got started, think about myself way, way back when I was an undergrad because I remember wishing that there was a book like this back when I was, uh, I think it was a junior year at UCLA. And even though I had the privilege of being part of a grad school preparation program, it was part of the Mellon Mays undergraduate fellowship. We were part of the first cohort, and so a lot of it was getting built along the way, and I felt like there was so much about the process that I was figuring out on the spot, and that felt very frustrating to me.

And so I remember thinking, why is there no guide, resource, or even binder? Back then we had a lot of binders with handouts, and I remember making my own binder full of resources and [00:10:00] thinking, we ha there's gotta be a way to share this with others. And that was just an idea that came up in my head. When I was a college student and then in grad school, I continued to feel that way of just that the struggles that come with navigating the hidden curriculum and learning about things a little bit too late and wishing that you had known those things earlier.

And then again, just over and over again. I just kept it hitting me. Like someone just with a chancla hitting me in the back of the head. Like, this is so obvious. Working for McNair at uc, Santa Barbara, where we met thinking. I have access to all of these resources and I physically don't have the capacity to mentor all these students who reach out, especially the friends of the McNair Scholars who didn't get in who still needed that information. That's what started the podcast. That's, that was the catalyst for the podcast. But you the catalysts for the book actually becoming. because [00:11:00] I didn't take that seriously. That felt like a big, lofty dream and unattainable. And if, if anything, that's where my imposter phenomenon kicks in of feeling like, oh, my writing's not good enough. Who's actually gonna read this? I'm not an academic. Can I really do this? So when you offer to support me in that process, it gave me that the validation affirmation, and the support, guidance FemMentorship that I needed to get through. That stage of publishing, co-authoring my first book. So in any case, it's a big kind of thank you to you because without you, I don't think this would've been possible.

And even if it was, it wouldn't have come at this time. It would've taken me a little longer to get there.

Miroslava: Yeah. Well, as I see a relationship in this book coming together with like two big pieces of one puzzle, sort of, you have and had all of these insights and knowledge and experience. I came with a different set of skills. Right. And I think that [00:12:00] I didn't realize even until recently, until McNair, really, I'm thinking about McNair and how this program over, you know, decades has helped to demystify and break apart the whole process that I thought was just something to get through quickly.

That was when I applied. It just was how many do I apply to, I have no idea. It was such a call. Complex and process. I just wanted to get to grad school, but I had no idea what I was even getting into. And so I think that you having all this knowledge and again insights and connections to people, it was just seemed like we needed to get that out there.

And so, yeah, it happened to come at the right time. So I'm really excited about that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: So now that we talked about why we wrote the book and how we got started, it's been just over a year. We published the book in April, 2024. We're recording this in May, and this episode should be out relatively soon, within a week or two after we record this. So it's been about a [00:13:00] year. Let's talk a little bit more about what's come up in the last year.

Any impact we've noticed speaking engagements. Or anything else that came up because of the book and.

Miroslava: I think a lot of things have come up because of the book. I, to me what's been most impactful, I think, is meeting people who have engaged the book or who wanna learn more about the book. And particularly when we've, uh, worked with our colleagues at these different campuses, that's been really great to see the students online.

Many of our sessions have been primarily online, but we've also done some hybrid. And also in person. So all of those have been terrific working with the students. And I just see this at the tip of the iceberg. I mean, we could really so much more to be done, but people sometimes don't have the resources or the time always to be able to invest more into this kind of work that we're doing.

That you're doing so much in terms of, because they see, I think they realize this is important, but. They, you know, there's other [00:14:00] things they're also considering. And so nevertheless, I think the people that we've reached, we've been so grateful in, in how, and the kind of information we're able to provide to them.

So that's been really fun, I think, in meeting people and then getting the messages through email, of course, like, oh, this book is terrific. The one thing that always comes across, of course is I wish I had, this is the book I wish I had when I was, you know, planning to go to school. And, you know, thinking now about when I was in grad school.

Even when I was considering it, I didn't think it was possible to have a book or resource that could encapsulate. All those, you know, aspects, the big ones and the nuances that you need to consider as a first gen. We didn't even have that language. Of course, first gen back in then.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right.

Miroslava: The nineties or earlier.

And so, uh, you know, we didn't know what we're getting into, but nevertheless, everyone, so far we've, we've met have had very positive things to say. I'm always looking for like, not the negative things, but No, like, what else could we talk about? And certainly there's definitely like, could be a, a second portion to the work, but I'll jump ahead.

But yeah, let's say all those things sort of come to mind. It's kind of a blur. We did so many [00:15:00] interviews, like it was like pretty tiring at the, I don't wanna say exhausting, but it was fun. And we did a lot of interviews. We wrote up blurbs for, you know, newsletters, things like that. So, it was a great opportunity has been, it will be.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right. We, we did, we had, I was counting, it was like two dozen interviews and speaking engagements combined and I forgot. Yeah, we did that, that blurb for the. of Oppor opportunities in Education for COE and I know that I've received, and you two have received communication from folks who have told us that they included the book in their curriculum. So grad school preparation courses McNair programs have included it. Mc Mellon May programs have adopted it as well. There's even a McNair boop. Camp, a grad school bootcamp that started using it. And so it's been really cool to see folks at Cal States, at ucs and smaller universities, uh, even universities on the [00:16:00] East coast adopting the book, and also to develop strengthen relationships that we had.

So I'm thinking about some folks that we knew from McNair. From my time when I was working at McNair, who then invited, invited us to lead a workshop to new people. I'm thinking about like uc, Merced, and working uh, to support their non-traditional students too. So

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: to me, like that's what comes up in terms of the impact is just like the wide reach of it. And, and, yeah. I'm trying to think about anything else that, that came up from the last year. There were so many podcast interviews too.

Miroslava: Yeah. And, and talking to the different folks and, and also I think a lot of times when we're on, well, at least in some of the podcasts, I, when people were, were also in the same kind of work that this book is about. Right. So, times it could feel like there might be a competitive edge or not. But through the process of [00:17:00] our interactions with them, I felt like at the end it was such a mutual, like we're in this together, we're working together as a community.

You know? 'cause there can be a lot of competition I think in these other spaces like podcasting that, you know, people, that's my territory. But we were like, we wanna learn from you. And you know, and they invited us 'cause they wanna learn from us. But I remember getting so much from like part, I remember Emily Roberts who did stuff on, she works on helping graduate students with finances and she was very reserved, but then when she was sharing, I thought, oh my God, I learned so much from her.

And I thought that was a really great interview that really stuck in my mind. And yeah, the relationships with these people, we haven't kept too much in contact with her, but I think as something that Christina Goler from, uh, the Academic Life Podcast on the New Books Network, and she, you know, we interviewed.

We did an interview with her and then we did a follow up. She wanted, you know, we went abroad and more specific and that was really great to sort of have that, uh, relationship with her. So, 'cause she brings in a lot of really great guests.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. And even more recently we did the podcast [00:18:00] interview with Doctora Gina Anne Garcia and that was really on like, building a graduate, going culture. So thinking about the book, not just for four year institutions, but even as early as. Two year institutions like early exposure to grad school preparation.

So I found that to be really insightful. She asked some really good questions that I hadn't thought about before. We even did a, an Instagram live. So it's just interesting how we've done podcast interviews, Instagram live, we've done workshops and they've been hybrid virtual, in person. We've done book talks, so it's been a good mix of things. And we're still, I mean hopefully we'll have some other opportunities coming up this year. I'm curious how the book has impacted work, so how it's impacted like personal or professional, or professional shifts in like how you're approaching the work that you do and your career. Same for me. It what comes [00:19:00] to mind?

Miroslava: Yeah, for it. I think for me it's been very impactful. Like I've always wanted to do work that was more public facing or you know, engaged in larger publics and communities and I think that this book is exactly what I wanted and it's been so nice to be able to have that sort of, I. I don't know what the word is.

Credential cred or rep, you know, a street rep or cred to say that yeah, I can speak to our, these communities about issues of education, right? 'cause I'm a historian, but I love, of course, I think lots of you ask almost any college student or somebody like, are they interested in issues around education?

Of course they are, right? Everybody wants to study education and I think for me, just. Book really allowed me to become sort of a, a momentary or maybe a quasi expert in this particular subject. And I was just thinking too, as I was preparing for this interview, like when we first did well, one of the interviews, hybrid interviews we did, uh, excuse me, speaking sessions we did was for the UCLA McNair National Conference in the summer of 24, I guess it was last year.

And, and I was so nervous. I dunno. It was a big ballroom and you know, we're [00:20:00] trying to work on the tech so you're coming in on Hi zoom and I'm there and I didn't wanna look at the audience, right? 'cause I feel like everybody was staring at me. And then shift, or fast forward, I wanna say six, seven months, where we did the hybrid one at the the McNair Promising Practices Institute in New Orleans.

And I was like Oprah. I was like walking around. I was gonna say different person, but the young people won't know who that is. Uh, walking around with a microphone and asking people questions and I just felt so comfortable at that point. So I just thought, wow, it does take the writing process to make you feel become an expert.

Of course. 'cause you're doing research and you're writing about it and then you're talking a lot about it. And then it just becomes such an important part I think. It's a very near this. This subject is very near dear to my heart. It's all the work that I've been doing in a sort of capacity, service capacity and teaching capacity.

And it's nice to bring it all together in a book and to sort of hate to say this, but kind of legitimize it within that kind of, because that's a lot of times that's how people say, oh, you wrote a book, if that makes it this sort of [00:21:00] legitimate kind of, I dunno, vehicle,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: It's

but yeah.

Yeah, because in terms of. Professional development in terms of career development. People do treat you differently when you are an author, and I've noticed that distinction in the last year of previously, like this is a draw in a folks know, oh, you're the co-author, or, oh, you've published, or like, there, there is, and. Even though I also feel like I'm, I'm sighing right now, I feel a bit uncomfortable with acknowledging that of the value of doing work that's perceived as legitimate so that you can enter the right spaces. For me, it's about that. It's about access to the spaces. To be able to be there for the people that need us.

And that's the feedback that we've received from our workshops and our book talks, is that students feel seen, they feel heard, they feel inspired, they [00:22:00] walk away with actionable things that they can do. And so. That's why for me it was, that was the strategy behind, oh, let me publish with an academic press.

I don't have to, or I didn't have to. I'm not, I'm not in academia per se, but I knew that there was that value of the quote unquote legitimacy of publishing in a way where it would be peer reviewed and where academic institutions would also value that, and it would allow me to enter those spaces where I wanted to. Have access to the people I wanna work with. So yeah, there's that, that is important. And it's just a reminder to folks who are thinking about whether or not they want to publish a book themselves of what can come after that.

Miroslava: Yeah, and it puts you kind of in a. Group of, you know, a a much smaller group of people that, a sort of conversation with, not that that's, I dunno, lemme make that sound exclusionary or like, but it does give you a different kind of a profile. And I think access point, I think, I mean, what's the goal here is [00:23:00] to help as many students as we can and if we can reach larger audiences and let's do that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I, one of the things too, in terms of me and my work publishing the work, I've realized even more so just how needed this work is because there's been more visibility attached to it. I think I, I, in my day-to-day, I forget how needed this work is, and so now that I'm working, been supporting folks in the graduate admissions process. Since 2010 and more recently, I've been on the other side of things supporting graduate students with the dissertation writing and completion process. And that's what's coming up for me is like if there is this guide and resource for, for students applying, there might be a need for a guide or resource. For those navigating graduate school. And there are, I mean, I'm thinking about the Latinx Guide to Graduate School as a really, really solid guide to support Latinx students. But in this case, like with the [00:24:00] tangible strategies that hands-on support. There, there is that need. So I'm thinking to myself even like, in learning from this book, like what could come next? So yeah, for me it's been just like a, a really cool, reflective process of like, wow, this, this work ha. Is what? We have needed and continues to be needed. And even more so now with what we're seeing of the potential of lot of different federally funded programs getting eliminated. And the, the very real fear that trio will also get impacted in that way. It's even more of a reason to do this work. It's needed, it's needed, needed more than ever. And. We, I'll add a link to the, to the trio. What was it? The,

Miroslava: The website, the

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: yeah, yeah. So that folks can sign the petition

Miroslava: oh, okay.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. I was just thinking about the petition right now. I was just thinking about how like, there's so many of [00:25:00] us that are being impacted a negative way by our current administration and a book like this is the type of book that we need because it, it shows that this work is needed.

Yeah.

Miroslava: And for folks who don't know, trio is the umbrella organization under which McNair operates, and also it's part of Up Upward Bound the social services, oh, it's SSS, which is like.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Student support services.

Miroslava: Okay.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah.

Miroslava: few other right, that are there too that are supported by trio. So, and that predates the Department of Education.

It was created, I know McNair specifically created, created, created through congressional action legislation. And so we're, we're technically, legally safe, but you know, that's not really the way things operate right now in Capitol Hill.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm just thinking about that like it's all interconnected.

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: the reason why

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: the impact

Miroslava: Totally.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: it's needed now more

Miroslava: Mm-hmm.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. I thought we could also talk about some of the [00:26:00] FAQs that have come up. You know, during our workshops, during our book talks, we've received some overlapping questions and the first that comes to mind is folks wanna know like about. The collaborative writing process. So first off, like what is it even like to write a book? And second, what is it like to write a book collaboratively? Because not everybody does that.

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: especially in the humanities and social sciences. I know it's more common in stem to to be a co-author, but in our case, this is unusual.

So yeah. What, what are your thoughts on, on the writing process and or how we collaborated?

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Miroslava: You know, in my career as a historian, I haven't had too many opportunities or done it too often, but the few times that I've done it have been pretty positive for the most part. And I think that if done well, it's, it's great. So generative. And one of the things that I discovered recently, I've been working on these teaching videos on how to write a journal article in the humanities.

And one of the points that I came across in doing my research is that, that people in STEM are much more productive because they work in teams, whereas we are in the humanities. Told at some point that, you know, this is a test of the self, this is about the individual. And yeah, I, I agree with that, that this is a right to show what does the individual have and what do they bring you, what are their ideas?

But I think that when we're in isolation, because you know, [00:28:00] academia and even writing, I don't care what, what field you're in, it can be, people say you're writing in community well, but you're alone writing there. But it's nice when you find somebody. Who you can vibe with that you have a good rapport with in writing.

And that takes some work, right? Getting to know that. So I'm not saying you're just going from point A to point B and let's get, let's do this. I don't think, I would not recommend just sort of with your, your best body, your bff say, let's do this. You need to really figure out each other's style. But I felt like we're working with you.

It was just like. I felt responsible. Like there's the event, right? She, I have to write because she's gonna be expecting. And I, and that really gave me some impetus and that's what really kept me going versus like, ugh, right? Like open the computer. So, and this is slightly different book, I think than my other, my other kind of academic writing.

But I felt like it was really great. And I think that because again, we brought different. Skills, different strengths. We were each adding, it's not, we were repeating ourselves or I thought I was, you know, writing in an area that was your [00:29:00] expertise. It was like, oh, this is my, I'm gonna do this part. Yvette will do that part, and so forth.

So we, I think that it just worked really well. I think we got, we're very fortunate 'cause I've been in other situations where I'm waiting and waiting and waiting and then the communication breaks down and then you don't, you know, it's a black hole and then it's six months, 12 months. And then, you know, it's not a good place to be.

So I think that doing a lot of thinking ahead and planning and mapping out some stuff, but we didn't, we did some of that. I, but just, I think we were just fortunate that still things came together because you can't prepare, you can't think ahead of everything. Right. I don't think

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right,

Miroslava: what you think.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: do agree. No, no, no. Yeah.

Trust and Respect in Collaborative Writing

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Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Like in what I'm hearing you say is that one of the things that worked well for us is that we both have different strengths and we played to our strengths. Another thing I didn't hear you say, but I think that was involved in why this was. For me at least, and from my personal experience, such a smooth [00:30:00] process because we trust each other

Miroslava: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I trust you and I trust your judgment.

I trust your opinion. I trust your knowledge. Even if we give each other feedback and constructive criticism, sometimes it can be hard to accept feedback, know that it comes from a good place and that's why. I mean, recently I shared with you a very, very early outline of potentially what could be my next book.

And I felt so raw, just like sharing it with you and so vulnerable sharing it with you. But I thought it's because I trust her. I trust her judgment, I trust her. And then the feedback you gave me was so good. And some ways I was like, wait, why didn't I think of that? But I'm like, this is why you need a second pair of eyes, this is why that these are the benefits of the collaborative writing process.

And I'm glad that you mentioned. you know how it's more common in stem because it's just a reminder that it doesn't have to be the case. Even if you're writing [00:31:00] own sole authored book, or even if you're writing your own sole authored article, you don't have to do it alone. You can still have someone else giving you feedback, someone else who you trust, and I'm trying to think about else.

Miroslava: The other thing,

sorry, sorry. When you were saying trust, that's a thing that I, when I was taking notes on what we're gonna talk about today, it came up quite a bit. But the other one related to that is respect, right? So I trust you. I totally trust and, and also highly respect you and your ideas. So I felt that, again, it was sort of, I don't wanna say obligation, a duty responsibility, being accountable, it, all these things were wrapped in my head like that.

This was a really important project to do. Because I respected so much your work and because I wanna do, and also I think at some point I was also, what's the word? Really felt the weight of the fact that you let me, I. Sort of enter that space, like to read the podcast, to go through them. Like you share that, [00:32:00] all of that, you know, that's yours, that's your intellectual property or however you wanna talk.

We can talk about intellectual property. So you like open that up, you open the vault essentially, right? You opened this vault, your archive, and I went in there and you let me sort of manipulate or like go through it and pull it. That's really big to do that, you know, so again, I guess that's trust, right?

You feeling like I'm not gonna take these things and run with them and do God knows what. And so that's also pretty I think all those points sort of, fed into this work.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. I learned so much from that experience of even how do you turn something that's in a different medium or modality into this, into what later became the book is like, I'm taking that as like a learning lesson, even going into future writing of like. It is, there's so much to learn from one another when you work with other people and about the writing process, like it doesn't have to be. Done in this very particular way. Some folks get caught up with like, I [00:33:00] have to write a certain way and it doesn't have to start that way. It could be, it could start with a voice memo, it could start with note notes. It could start with journaling. It's, it's whatever gets you to that, ultimately rework it and turn it into the, the writing that gets published and yeah.

And I'm thinking about motivation and timelines and how. Because we weren't starting from scratch because our relationship also, we weren't building it from scratch because we both knew the topic so well, and because we just so happened to get lucky with the editors that we worked with. Somehow, , it sounds too good to be true, but for me it was an overwhelmingly positive experience and I didn't expect that I was signing up thinking, okay, like almost like. Putting up my, my armor. It's like, oh, here we go. I'm gonna publish something. It's gonna be hard. And it wasn't that, that was the biggest surprise I think in this whole process.

Miroslava: It was [00:34:00] 23. Right. We really jammed through that. Mean, we were just like the summer of 23 I think it was, right?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: wrote it in six months

Miroslava: Yeah. Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: was, that was the

Miroslava: It was like, it was like, uh, passing the baton back and forth, you know, it was kinda like that. I mean, we all end up, we independently,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: we weren't even rushing.

Miroslava: We independently worked on different parts, but then at times it was like, you know, can you pick this up because I have this, or,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah,

Miroslava: or so, and it just kind of worked so.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I wanted to mention that too, because there was a lot of grace and compassion that we offered to each other, and I always feel self-conscious when things come up, like flareups or stuff with my health and chronic illness, and you just were there. You understood, like you, that that is really important too, of like communicating your needs, communicating your boundaries, and then offering each other grace.

So extending each other grace, vice versa. I, I know that if anything ever comes up with you and if we're working on something [00:35:00] together, like. I will pick up the slack because you always do that for me too, so I, I wanna acknowledge that. 'cause I feel like it's one thing to say I wrote a book in six months and to brag about it, but then you're hustling and working yourself to death

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: we didn't do that

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah.

Miroslava: And I'm thinking now as you're speaking, whether it was useful for us to be at different points in our careers. Right. Because I don't have young children. My children are in college. You are, you have baby. I mean, you have a baby. Your, your, your child, your youngest child was pretty young.

And your son, you're homeschool. I mean, whew. God, I told I didn't have all that. Right. I could just literally sit in front of the computer. We know my spouse and the dog, you know, like you tell 'em, hang on. And they're very understanding. My husband more than the dog, but it was a different kind.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I was gonna say that.

Miroslava: Yeah. I had to get her out of the room because she was just going to be anyways. So, yeah, I think that, I don't know. I just think maybe if we would've been at the same point, it would've been harder, or, I don't know. I just was thinking about that.[00:36:00]

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: You know, the, the process has felt very equitable. not equal, but equitable. And to

Miroslava: Yeah. Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: really important. And because we're at different stages and because our careers are also different and the meaning and the value of the book is different for both of us. We, we did have to have hard conversations and we continue to have hard conversations, but at the end of the day, we've arrived at like compromises that to us felt mutually beneficial and equitable. And I, I just, I respect you so much because of that. 'cause a lot of folks just like insist on what is quote unquote equal and then , it doesn't end up being equitable. And so, yeah. I just wanna shout you out 'cause I, I really do , you're not just a femtor, you're, you're a sponsor. You're just like.

Miroslava: I try to be, I mean.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: so lucky to, to have access, but you know what, not [00:37:00] every, I work with so many people who don't have mentors, advisors, committee members, supervisors, you name it.

'cause you were once my supervisor who do this and I personally did not have that kind of experience and that's why we're still in touch. 'cause I've, so much value in our relationship, like both. Like at the professional and the personal level. And so, yeah, this episode is not about like, I do wanna give you your flowers, and I know it's not about that, but I, I can't not mention it because it's a big part of like, what I believe is the success of the book is also the success of our relationship.

Miroslava: Yeah, I, yeah, I think that a lot of people too are like, who is Yvette or who is, they don't if they know me, but they don't know you and then they see you and see like, well she must be pretty special, I think. And I think, yes, she is very, people need to know you and, and uh, yeah, definitely. I think that's part of it.

I think we both have our [00:38:00] own. I mean, I see your values through your work with all your clients and the people that you really, really care about. And so for me, I wanna lift you up and that's why I'm here. I mean, at the end of the day, it's about the other person. You know, even decisions that we did, like, you know, people might ask like, how did you decide on who came first name on the book or the cover,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right.

Miroslava: or how do you handle, you know, all the other aspects of it.

So yeah, it's a matter, I'm. Thinking it through and what it is that I, what is the, not the purpose, but the benefit. How are we gonna,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Mm-hmm.

Miroslava: know, and this partly 'cause I liked part of my values and how I tried to move in this world, you know? But again, I'm just thinking about all the people who've done this for me in the past and now is my turn.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right. Yeah. I love that. And I, I see that too. Like that's, I, in any way that I can uplift, amplify, mentor, sponsor others, I do. Because it just makes such [00:39:00] a big difference. And, you know, if anything, we need it. We, I keep saying this and I know I sound like a broken record, but we need it now more than ever.

We

Miroslava: Yeah, we can't. Yeah, because we can't rely on the institutions anymore. No. At all.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right.

Future Projects and Reflections

---

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: So looking ahead, speaking of getting through this administration and beyond, looking ahead, what's coming next, you know, in light of what we've learned from year of this book being out in the world, is there anything you're working on next?

Anything I'm working on next? Any ideas, hopes, dreams for what comes next? And also for the future of the book, because it's not like one year we're done it, it's, we don't know. I feel like every time you put a book out into the world it's an ofrenda and you never know what will happen with

Miroslava: True. That's true.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: and so,

Miroslava: one thing we didn't mention is, is and I think this is kind of partly what inspiring. So we, uh, just to go back to the point about this work being very public facing and very engaged in the [00:40:00] community, because a lot of our academic work honestly doesn't really go beyond the four walls at the institution.

And so I've always. I think this book has sort of made that more clear, like how important that is. And so I have things that I've been thinking about, I've been thinking about for a while is maybe doing a graphic novel related to this kind of the academic work. So the, the message, you know, the point about that I work on right now, I thought like, wouldn't it be cool to communicate that through a graphic novel that could be a target at the high school, like a senior high school level or you know, undergrad level that could be assigned and, and more people would pick that up.

Again, because our, our academic books get read by such a small group and even unless you have to really hustle hard to get your message out there. But I was thinking, one thing we didn't mention today is like our book is sold about probably 2000 or more than 2000 copies. There's probably more than all of my books.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: than

Miroslava: Yeah. More, more, it's probably more than all, easily, more than all my other books together. So, that's pretty cool. And then it's been downloaded, I don't know how many times it's available at the library, so [00:41:00] getting into hands of others. I think that that's why we're here. We're not here to keep our books on, on the dusty shelf.

So I think for me, this is, has inspired me to think about how I could do that. I, I'm also thinking about doing sort of an. Not an academic academic book. I wanna write it in a way that's more accessible, but still the idea of a, a graphic novel, something different, it's a different genre. And that's something that I keep thinking about.

Yeah. And it kind of comes and goes, comes and goes. But that's, uh, yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Wow. I'm not sure if you had told me that, that you were thinking of working on a graphic novel that, that sounds so cool. Is do you have a, like do you, do you have someone to do to work on the art for that or is that something you would do?

Miroslava: I'm not an artist. I mean, I love art and I was a kid and everybody who doesn't my partner, my spouse, he sort of volunteered, but I know it's hard to work with your partners. Oh, I just told him. Oh, okay. And then my child, my oldest child is getting a degree in art digital media. So potentially or not, there's always, there's a, there's a, there's a [00:42:00] collective of graphic artists of color or even have a website, have this where you can tap into them.

But it is very expensive because it's a lot labor.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yes.

Miroslava: But there's also a press. One of the presses is, has a whole series on them, so I could potentially approach, I haven't looked into it quite yet, but I, I know I've seen them. I've read some of them. I've really one book called The Best We Could Do. I love that it's about the Vietnamese.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: my gosh. Me too!

Miroslava: Yeah, that's so impactful. My child, oldest child read Earl Lewis's book like three times. Like they said, this is the third time I'm looking at this graphic novel on civil rights. So yeah, I mean, they're just, when done well, not all of 'em do well. So, it's, it's just another, another vehicle.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah, I, I have definitely enjoyed reading graphic novels. They just felt more accessible, and I think that's exciting. Yeah, I mean, for me, when I think about what, what comes next, I do envision writing another guide type book. I just, I haven't decided if it's [00:43:00] gonna be strictly for a graduate student audience or if it's going to be for graduate students and professionals, I know there's still very much a need for demystifying the graduate school a nd career development process. And that's kind of where my work is going now. Even though I still do a lot of grad admissions work. so much even beyond that. It's similar to like this, this whole pipeline thing of,

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: okay, you get support from high school to get to college.

Now what? And then maybe you get into one of these preparation programs in college, you receive guidance and then you get to grad school and then now what? And it's just, it's just, it would be the next step of supporting individuals in their own career and life journey. that's what I, that's what comes up for me, is just like a guide for sustainable success of defining your own version of sustainable success and how to get there. But we'll see, we'll see how long it'll take me to do research and the [00:44:00] writing process and eventually work up the courage to either publish it myself or to send it out and see if a publisher will, will be

Miroslava: Yeah, you do so much of it already, and every, whenever you give these presentations, students are just, you know, love it. And I mean, I, from someone who's been around for many decades, it's. Always useful to remind because we just get, sometimes things change, like, you know, just new tools. AI for instance,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Mm-hmm.

Miroslava: we gonna navigate that?

How is that gonna, so we're always learning new things and it's hard to keep up. I mean, at my age only. 'cause when you grow up with things like AI, then it's normal. 'cause you know it every day. But if it's something completely new, you have to take time away from what you're already doing. So learn a new, new tool and often we resist it, but it's good to, you know, and so that's why the kind of work that you do is, is so useful for everyone at all stages.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. And I would want it to be, relatively accessible to folks of all ages, [00:45:00] stages. You know, with, with shared values as this, like common denominator. Uh, yeah. So, you know, definitely like an anti burnout guide, right? We don't want folks doing work and then harming themselves in the process. So that, those are my thoughts.

It's just, it's, right now it's, it's more of a dream than a goal.

Miroslava: We'll make, well, I'll.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Oh, you're gonna nudge me. I know. You are gonna keep me accountable. Let's nudge each other. I'll, I'll remind you about the graphic novel. You remind me about this one.

Miroslava: I just talk about it like really lofty because it, it's, it's I mean it's, oh, I think we both know, you know, making the decision to do something or not is a big decision, so you need to be prepared for it, because I don't think,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: We both take it very seriously.

Miroslava: Yeah, I don't wanna go into something and then let it sort of crumble apart.

That wouldn't feel good, you know?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And maybe that's the another thing, just going back to how we made this work. I do think that we both [00:46:00] are the type of people that, like, once

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: a decision, we commit to it and not everybody's like that. yeah. It's been so amazing working with you. as we get close to wrapping up 'cause we're getting close to our time today.

I'm curious if. There's any closing reflections you wanna leave us with either, like pleasant surprises, what's brought you joy in this process or in the last year related to the book, or any shout outs, anything we wanna share with our listeners today.

Miroslava: I guess I would like to shout out everybody who's, you know, involved in the book. All the people who offered their. Sample statements. All these students now who are probably finishing up their PhD programs who have come before us also, all the people who throughout my career have been involved, whether they know it or not in this process.

And it's kind of fun once in a while. I don't do it very often. I like to read the book and sometimes like, like who wrote this? Like, I don't know, it's just, it is our voice, but then it's [00:47:00] sort of, you know, because it's a different thing. It's out there. It, because some, it becomes something else and yeah, it just still full of, of pride in having this work out there.

And. Looking to engage it more, in the recent future. So yeah, excited to do more work with it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Right. It's been, I, I've been using it as a resource and having it accompany, like the work that I do, and I work one-on-one. So when I've had programs hire me to work one-on-one with their students, I will make sure that they have access to the book and then I will assign certain chapters, or I'll have them take a look at some sample essays.

And so it's, it's actually been a really great add-on for the curriculum and for the teaching, uh, and the guidance that I, I offer in my consulting sessions with students. And yeah, in terms of just like pride and joy, it's been just really cool to hear from people, both folks who were involved in the book where, like you said, the folks that submitted their [00:48:00] sample essays or who were quoted in the book and now seeing that they're finishing their programs is is just such a gratifying feeling. And then also to hear on the other side of things, folks who are new to us and the book and who just are like, oh, I found your book at my local library, or I found your book.

Someone said they found it out a Barnes and Noble. I'm like, we're at a Barnes and Noble.

Miroslava: Oh wow. That's pretty cool. Wow. Very cool.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah, and and randomly messaged me

Miroslava: Wow.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: to thank me. Like they just opened the book and then like started reading the intro and got hooked and I'm like, wow. That's so amazing to hear stories like

Miroslava: That.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: who. Just suddenly find the book out of nowhere and, and really feel seen by our story, by especially the introduction where people have said it feels like a platica And that's, that's what we were aiming for, of just

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: telling our, a little bit about our backstories so that folks can understand where we come from and why we wrote the book. So [00:49:00] a really beautiful experience, a gratifying year. Just. Oh my goodness. I don't know how we made it work. We just talked about how we made it work, but just like looking back, I'm like, wow, we did a lot

Miroslava: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we're very fortunate, I think, I mean, I don't always believe in luck, you know? Uh, I think than, I mean, I, I do, it's easier to say than what it really is. And I think below that sort of idea of just luck, it's really relationships and opportunities that are created. 'cause sometimes, oh, it's just like I.

No, there was real reasons. We have privileged, we are on privileged spaces in different ways. And I think that that's what has allowed us, I mean, the fact that I had a relationship with my colleague who put us in contact with uc press, yeah, we could have gone another way, another press eventually, but that relationship I had published a book with them before and I knew some, all these things right?

And you have all these, uh, experiences. This, uh, working with all these clients and having that really solid, that was really useful as well. Of course. Central to what the, how this project came together.[00:50:00]

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah, so it's a reminder

Miroslava: Mm-hmm.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: that the book, book publishing

Miroslava: Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: is also about relationships.

Miroslava: yeah. Definitely.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: It's not just about the writing, and so much happens after the writing that sometimes it feels like the writing is only a fraction of the process.

Miroslava: true.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. Well, thank you so much Miros, for joining us for this lovely conversation, for allowing us to reflect on this experience for being , my friend, my femtor, my sponsor, co-author, all the things, so many, so many titles, so many roles.

You, you have so many hats that you wear and, and just know that you're appreciated.

Miroslava: Thank you and thank you so much for listening and for agreeing to work with me and all of these things. It's just been, sometimes I, when I'm going along, I'm like, I need a dose of Yvette. I need to contact her, like for her to listen, to, gimme feedback and really reflect back on, and so it's, I. You're so good at that.

And yeah, I feel so fortunate to be able [00:51:00] to you know, even though we're generations apart, to be able to connect with you. That's really cool.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. Thank you. ​thanks so much for listening. If you liked what you heard, here are three ways you can support the show. The first is to make sure you're subscribed and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. The second way is to get your copy of my free resource kit linked in my show notes. This kit includes tools, playlists on all things grad school, productivity, and personal development.

The third way to support my show is to follow me on social media. You can find me on Instagram with the handle at gradschoolfemtoring and on LinkedIn by searching my name. Thanks again for listening. And until next time.