307: How to Be an Anti-Ableist Advocate in Higher Education with Janelle A. Johnson

307: How to Be an Anti-Ableist Advocate in Higher Education with Janelle A. Johnson

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Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: [00:00:00] Welcome

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: to the award winning Grad School Femtoring Podcast, the place for first gen BIPOCs to listen in on inclusive grad school stories and learn about personal development and productivity tips. This is Dr. Yvette Martinez-Vu, a certified coach, consultant, and author, and I will be serving as your femtor, providing you with insider knowledge to help you reach your personal and professional goals.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Welcome back everyone to another episode of the grad school femtoring podcast. This is your host, Dr. Yvette, and today we are going to cover the topic of how to be an anti ableist advocate in higher [00:01:00] education and really in general, I should say. Our guest is Janelle Johnson. I was about to say Dr.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Janelle Johnson, but I'm already like manifesting that and she is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a doctoral candidate, a neurodiversity researcher, and a DEIA consultant with lived experience at the intersections of race, disability, and neurodivergence. She guides leaders in helping professions to address inequitable outcomes, cultural mismatch of providers and consumers, and praxis misalignment using intercultural connection that centers mental and relational wellness. And her free time, you can find her spending time with family, eating delicious food, hiking, or binge watching K dramas. I love that. Welcome to the podcast, Janelle.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Thank you so much. Thanks for inviting me. I'm glad to be here. I'm looking forward to our discussion today.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Me, [00:02:00] too. Me, too. So I usually start out with this very big open ended question. Feel free to answer it as you like, because that that question can take up the entire hour. But as briefly as you're comfortable sharing, can you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do and how you arrived at where you are today?

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Sure. Well as far as who I am I am, I identify as a black, multiply neurodivergent, multiply disabled, This hetero woman. I align with social justice rooted in Christian values. And yeah, that's about it. I will introduce myself visually. I'm a black woman. I'm wearing glasses that are cat eye. Black and gold.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: I have my hair in like this kind of interesting soft updo thing. And I'm sitting in a room in a brown chair with a yellow Blanket behind me and a [00:03:00] picture on the wall.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So a little bit about Yeah, a little bit about what I do. So I do a lot like People ask me all the time how I have time for everything I don't know it just kind of happened, but I am founder and CEO of Bridges Family Life Center.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: We are a family therapy practice And right outside of Raleigh, North Carolina. And we have three arms there. So we do therapy, which is family, couple, and individual therapy, primarily for BIPOC families managing neurodivergence and trauma. And then we have another program called the PUSHES Project, where we do mental health equity work focused on training and mentoring new interns that are becoming therapists.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And then we have the DEI arm, where we focus on supporting organizations who have a gap, a misalignment between the folks that are in their leadership and the people that they serve whether that [00:04:00] is with race or ability or what have you. heard

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: yeah.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: the other stuff, so the other stuff was in the bio.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah. I feel like it's helpful to know the different branches of the work that you do. So it's not just through your research, but also through your practice and also through your trainings and consulting. So you're, you're involved in multiple different facets of supporting others and helping professions.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And I would like to hear a little bit more about your own journey. And especially your journey navigating higher education, since a lot of my listeners are first gen BIPOC college students, grad students, or even recent graduates. I'd love to hear more about your journey, especially, you know, you mentioned that you identify as someone who is multiply neurodivergent and disabled, and I'm just curious kind of how that has impacted your higher [00:05:00] education journey.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Sure, sure. I think, I didn't think a whole lot about it before I started this this stage of my academic career. My academic career has been spread out, so I did undergrad back in 2003 to 2007. And so back then I was an undiagnosed person and I really struggled. I struggled really badly.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: I came to NC State where I'm at now for my, for my, uh, degree, but I was originally there for undergrad. And I came there with a 4.1 GPA full ride scholarship, honors student. And by the time I got to the end of freshman year, I was failing with a 1. 3 GPA. I had lost my scholarship. I was on academic probation.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So I had a really rough journey on the front end as an undiagnosed [00:06:00] person. So fast forward to now, and well, I'll say four or five years ago, when I was trying to decide what I was going to do for my doctorate, I thought that I wanted to keep, stay in the field of psychology. That's what I've been studying forever.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And I just so happened to find out that my school at NC State had a new educational equity program that had just started. And my advisor, met with me. This was before I joined. And she was like, you should join this program. I'm on the faculty. I'm doing work with black autistic families, and I would love to have you on my team.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: She didn't have any black autistic folks on her team at the time. She had black folks, autistic folks, not together. And so that's what started this journey that I was not planning. And I've had a very different experience in grad school or in my doctorate program specifically, because I Approach things differently, and because I was a diagnosed person And so I was really purposeful about advocacy [00:07:00] in ways that I wasn't on the front end. So it's one of the reasons I'm passionate about, about talking about this topic.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: That's helpful to know and to distinguish between your experience as someone who struggled and did not have a diagnosis versus someone who had the diagnosis and and learn how to advocate for yourself. I can certainly relate with my experience. My entire educational journey. I was not diagnosed.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I was only recently diagnosed. Just a few months ago, and it's, you know, I've suspected it for a couple of years now, but it was all after I finished my doctoral program, and I will, I will say that I have a shared experience of advocacy. Be making a big difference in my life and the life of those I support. And, , I see that, I guess that's what I heard in you telling a little bit more about your higher ed journey is that some folks find themselves struggling and, and they don't have [00:08:00] answers or the adequate support that they need. Yeah.

For our listeners that are new to this space, so new to hearing the terms disability, disability inclusion, disability justice, can you explain these terms for them, especially the term anti ableism too, and what that means to you, why it's especially important, you know, if we're thinking about higher ed and other Thank you. Other institutions that we may be part of why it's important to, to know what this is and even to be part of this work.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Sure. So. Ableism is a form of oppression where systems and people in those systems value non disabled lives, bodies, brains, and experiences more than disabled lives, brains, bodies, and experiences. [00:09:00] And that produces inequity on a systemic level, and it can produce microaggressions and all kinds of different things.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So, for anti ableism, anti ableism is a form of equity work that is focused on dismantling barriers that exist for disabled folks. It's an act of engagement, it's an active activity, right? It's an action, it's a verb. So, and that can, Come about in all kinds of different ways through policy through pedagogy through creating affinity spaces, all kinds of things that you can do to advance anti ableism the type of ableism that happens in higher ed specifically is called academic ableism, and I think one of the foremost voices on that in, in that regard is Dr. Jay Dolmage has an excellent book. If you want to know all about [00:10:00] academic ableism, that's a great place to start. Did I answer your question? I feel like I might have missed a part.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah. I think that what's key here is understanding what ableism is and what anti ableism is in, in our conversation. And also I'll make sure to add that reference to, to the book about academic ableism in the show notes so that folks can have it handy if they want to learn more.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Now, you mentioned the work of dismantling or reducing barriers that disabled folks experience and in this case, I would love to hear a little bit more about common barriers that disabled BIPOC students and neuro divergent BIPOC students to in particular, what are some of the barriers that they're experiencing? In academia, that folks who may not identify as, as disabled or as neurodivergent, maybe they have never experienced these types of [00:11:00] barriers. What are some of these just to like say a little bit more to make people aware of them?

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Sure. So I will say that BIPOC disabled folk and neurodivergent folk and white, neurodivergent, and disabled folk are facing similar challenges, there are some nuances for BIPOC folk and a few things that are just a little bit different. But I'll talk about the general things first. So you have your, your basic things, just like physical access.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So a lot of college campuses really struggle in this area. Still, they were built at a time where we didn't have the building codes and things that we do now. A lot of those building codes were created as a result of universal design, which was created at NC State, by the way. So the, the campuses are not designed to be physically accessible, so people have a hard time getting places who who need mobility aids and then you have pedagogical differences challenges. So, a lot of folks [00:12:00] are really facing the most significant challenges interacting with faculty and staff. Far and above, that's the biggest area that folks that are facing the most challenges in.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Faculty and staff who don't follow the law because they're not aware, because they're not trained. Folks who experience discrimination in the classroom, like not having access to Captions or not being able to have printout made on large print or having material presented in a particular way that doesn't fit the way that that learner learns.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And it would be better to be presented in a different way. So all, all of those things are a challenge because even when disabled Students and, and stakeholders try to advocate for themselves. They are running up against these systemic barriers and policy barriers that get in the way. And they're having to kick against the pricks, like, [00:13:00] it's not getting anywhere a lot of the times.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: One thing that we don't talk about often is the policy side of things. For instance, when, what happens if you do, uh, announce yourself as autistic as a faculty member, and you're trying to get published. There's some early documentation that that is impacting the way that, Folks are treated with their colleagues.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: It's impacting the opportunities they get to publish. All kinds of things. And then even, , beyond that , on a systemic level, the types of work that gets published. So a lot of times the work that is published about ability and disability is focused on cures. And it's focused on the things that the disability community doesn't actually care about, or the neurodiversity community doesn't care about.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So those are, those produce further inequities because we don't get the information that we need to actually live our lives. that's Just a, a, a good little start or [00:14:00] tidbit.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Yea I feel

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: like that's a really big question that I asked about the barriers because there are so many of them and you named, you know, a few as it relates to higher education. So the physical access to university spaces, which, even though I personally did not use mobility aids when physically on campuses, I did bring a stroller with my baby.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And that's when I became aware and conscious of, whoa, it's really hard to get around when you're on wheels. that, that was an aha moment for me. And then, , well, and also like becoming pregnant and realizing that that was a physical disability for me at the time, or that is, that is a legal disability. And realizing that the differences in, again, accessing space, depending on your. capacity to move. And then you mentioned a lot of the what stands out to me is that you said that [00:15:00] a really common barrier is folks working with professors who are not following the law. And I know this is just from personal experience and from working with so many, I would say at least dozens, but at least dozens of of experiences of working with students who have advocated for themselves with documentation, with the diagnosis, with going to their university their university Accessibility Services Center or Disability Services Center. And trying to

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: get that support that they need and still being shut down by professors who are doing something that's illegal. So, I appreciate you calling that out because it's very real and it's a very common experience and unfortunately a lot of the support that students get is, is not centralized.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: It's not like You do things one way and you'll find it the same way across the board. And you even mentioned that I thought that fun fact about NC [00:16:00] state being where universal design was created. That's pretty handy because it's helpful to know that there are some universities that are doing more than others, and that could impact how students even think about where they go for their schooling. So anyway, sorry, I had a lot of thoughts about what you shared. Now, I would love to transition into. More the side of strategies for listeners to become better anti ableist. And one of the things that I'm grateful for is that you shared with me in advance, a copy of your article titled how to be an anti ableist clinician.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And in it, you share your three A framework. We can have you say more about that. But when I read it, I thought to myself, hold up. This is not just helpful for clinicians. This is helpful for many other people in helping professions and just in general, to be a decent human being.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: yes,

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yea, I would love to [00:17:00] hear more about about that framework if you're comfortable and and if you have any other strategies. I'm open to hearing that as well.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: For sure. So I'll save that for last because there's a lot to say about it. But as far as strategies for increasing our ability to be anti ableist advocates on campus. I think the first thing that I encourage folks to do is to make sure that you are as healthy as you can be. So make sure that you are taking care of your health needs as best as you can.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Making sure that you get a therapist. If you're on campus, most campuses, if not all campuses, have therapy available. And so, Get, get all the supports that you need. I will tell you something that I haven't told anyone else. I actually went to therapy for a year before I started my doc program and I did that to [00:18:00] help me manage some things that I was going through at the time with some new diagnoses.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: I had long COVID and it, that's how I found out about a lot of my disabilities that I have. But also, because I wanted to sort through what it was like to go back to this campus that I had these really hard experiences at. And so I am a strong advocate for folks getting the support that they need mentally and physically with their physical health as best as they can next mentorship.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Oh, my goodness. The best advice that I got for the reason why one of the reasons why my experience as a doctoral student has been overwhelmingly positive. I've had some challenges, but it's been overwhelming, overwhelmingly positive is because I was very particular about the mentor that I was going to be working for working with.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So the best advice that I got. By far in trying to [00:19:00] find the right grad program for me, the right doctoral program for me is choose what you're going to do based on your advisor, find the right advisor, find the right program, find the right support. So this is the reason why. Like I said, I was planning on doing a psych degree, but I followed the advice that I felt was really important, which was you need to have the right mentor.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And I felt like this place, this mentor, my mentor is Dr. Jamie Pearson. Wonderful, wonderful, powerful researcher doing amazing. new groundbreaking research in black autistic education interventions. But I chose to do a totally different program because I thought this is the advisor that I want. To have in my corner through this process.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So, hands down, pick the right mentors, the right advisors, the right [00:20:00] spaces and be willing to be flexible with other things so that you can have that. And then beyond that, I encourage you to build community. So. I have a good community at NC State in our FACES lab with Dr. Jamie Pearson and in my cohort, and beyond that, I still did all the work to do lots of community building outside of that.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: It's how I met you. It's how I met all kinds of folks because I'm looking to bolster all the support that I could possibly get so I can have people to lean on and, and, and communities to strengthen me while I go through this. pretty difficult process. It's tough getting a doctor. So that's, that's number three.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And then four, I would say is developing your, your self advocacy skills. And this is where I'll hone in on 3A. So I originally built 3A because I I'm a family therapist and I built it [00:21:00] eight years ago to work with like folks who are having trouble communicating with their partners over gender inequality in their homes.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: That's why I created it originally black and brown families that have, you know, had these traditional values or raised in these traditional values or whatever cultural values that were backing that they came from in their background, and they're coming together in these relationships and these marriages, trying to build a family together.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And. Man, gender inequality was like the thing all the time in a lot of households. And so I built three a, because there was these big, what we call relational ruptures is big things that we're getting in between people being able to communicate and heal so that they could go on and build, build a family system that worked for them.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And so three a, the basic framework [00:22:00] is acknowledge, ask, And you can read about it in the book. But what that is, it's like this. I like people to remember Triple A. What do you do when you're in emergency call Triple A. Right? So acknowledge that, hey, I might have done something wrong or, hey, I might be having feelings because I was done wrong. And then what can we do to address this? How can we make this better? How can we how can we settle our feelings? You know, and then act, do the thing. If you don't do the thing that you arrive at from the asking, it all falls apart and it's hard to rebuild trust again.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So that's like the basic framework, but what I found is, this framework had all kinds of implications for all kinds of different oppressions that were happening in all kinds of contexts and environments, and so I started [00:23:00] using it in DEI work and then I put it in this book chapter for folks that are also educators for counselor educators specifically thinking about how folks can build connection with their students who are from different backgrounds from them and relational ruptures happen in the classroom.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: They happen all the time. They really do professors get it wrong. Well, just like we were talking about earlier, professors get it wrong, or they say things that are inflammatory, or they don't address an issue that comes up in class and they have. The students who are offended and it impacts how they interact in the class.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: They can actually impact their grades all kinds of stuff. And so this is one framework that folks can use to begin to repair those things in a. Multicultural classroom or using critical frameworks for pedagogy things that you can [00:24:00] this framework is relevant for those kinds of approaches to our experiences in the classroom.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: That was such a multifaceted answer because he walked us through starting out with the self and well being doing what you need to do to take care of yourself and then going into mentorship. So making sure you're not only advocating for you, but you have people who can advocate on your behalf as well, or folks who I feel like that is such a key part of going to grad school and your ability to have a overwhelmingly positive experience is finding the right advisor, the right mentor, so that is really important.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And then to the community aspect of of that, too, which is often missing in some programs of making sure you tap into community. And in this case, community that is that also has a shared commitment to social justice, including. Disability justice [00:25:00] and anti ableist work, and then leading us all into your framework or the advocacy piece, which is what you notice that this was helpful in supporting couples and families developing their family systems. And trust me, I have been there, have gone to couples counseling with my partner and and yeah, ruptures happen and we make mistakes.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: So we're all human and it. You know, in the article, you kind of walk us through an example of a clinician who makes a mistake and what you do to repair the harm. The, you said it's, it's the acknowledge, ask, and act to the triple A. So to, just to remember that that can, that can be handy, whether you're a professor, whether you are a counselor, whether you are a mentor, or just in any space where, like you said, relational ruptures can happen. So across any relationships, this is a handy tool to have.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Yes, you [00:26:00] sharing that and I'm going to, yeah,

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And definitely something else to be mindful of is 3A is relevant. It's relevant for whoever is using it. So if you're the person, if you're the student, if you're the If, if you're the client, if you're the whoever that the 3A is still relevant for you too, you could be the person who was offended and there's 3A still has its own process for you.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So it is, that's why it's called a multisystemic framework. It doesn't matter whose perspective it is. It doesn't matter the problem with a lot of the, the, or the challenge that we face and a lot of DEI work is. It's done from the, from the perspective of those in power, and it centers that, and so I wanted to be careful to produce a framework that was relevant, relevant for anyone that was using it regardless of how much or how little power they had in the dynamic.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Is, is it okay to ask for a specific example of when [00:27:00] you're in a power dynamic where you are not the one who has the most power. So I'm thinking about like the mentor mentee relationship and you're the mentee and your mentor has messed up. Like how do you use the triple a framework in this scenario?

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Sure, sure. That is a great, great question. Okay, so I would come up with an example off the top of my head, but that's not as useful. So I'm going to try to

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I'm sorry. I didn't, I didn't give you a heads up about it.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: It's totally fine. We don't roll with it. So I'm going to try to give you an example of of something that happened in real life.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So you have to be careful with this because I don't want to put anybody out there, but in my program, my current program, during my first year, we had a major relational rupture that almost really tore our whole program apart. And for me, my own personal experience, and it was, hey, you know, I [00:28:00] don't really need this degree.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Like, I already have. Already I've already like done this whole like process within a in a slightly different career path Where you know, I could just drop this and finish building up my practice and move on about my merry day So I really don't want to sign up for a whole bunch of extra trauma That I'm paying for And I don't want to feed my cohort my classmates to struggle And not be heard.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: We were all we're all in an educational equity program. So you have a whole bunch of folks who were very packed in it. Who are willing to go become equity scholars who are very passionate about equity. Right? And we had this experience where we were working with the professor who it's not that they didn't believe in equity.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: It's just they didn't have a really full picture that the fullest [00:29:00] picture that they needed to be teaching this particular course, this core course. This is like the basic core course of our program. And some things were said that, we're very inflammatory. And so what we did was first, instead of just moving on and just like, okay, well, we'll just put up with it.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Like, we'll just deal with it. We sat with it and we were like, wait a minute. This is not right. This is not okay. This is not, this is not the way that this should have happened. There is an, an, a double sided power dynamic here. This is a white professor in a predominantly black and brown class. And the things that were said were yeah, they were, they were very concerning.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Mind you, this is 2022. So, 3 years ago seems like a long time ago, given where we're at now, but it's, you know, we're [00:30:00] not too far out from. The freshness of George, George Floyd era. So we sat with it. We acknowledged like this is not right. And then we got together as a class and said, what do we want to do about this?

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: How do we want to address this? What can we do about this? And we had one or two folks in our class that were white, and they decided, they took it upon themselves to say, like, because of our skin color, we're going to go address it here. And they took it to different places in the university. And then it got taken to, it got, Taken up, up, up.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: All of us got interviewed and asked questions about what's going on. And we all put a document together saying this is what, how we're going to address it. And so we all are saying the same thing over and over. We're going to talk to all of our mentors and share with them what our challenges are so that they can advocate on our [00:31:00] behalf.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: We had a very nice collective effort that happened. We were, we decided we were not asking for this person's job. It was just this class is too important. It needs to be taught by someone who really knows what they're doing. And so that's what ended up happening. The professor got removed from the class mid semester, got removed from the class, and we got new professors for the course.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So that acknowledged act was was not something that the not something that the class was taught. Right. But that process, you can see the different pieces in it very clearly. It's a great framework for anyone to follow. And there's different ways that you can choose to implement it, whether you're alone or you're in a group.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: That last part, I actually was thinking about this framework it, you know, in terms of just one on one [00:32:00] relational ruptures. And so you bringing this example as like, a group dynamic and a, and a group engagement in the framework is also helpful. So I'm glad that I asked you for the example, cause I wasn't thinking about it in that way and how, how you can use it in so many different ways, so many different experiences, scenarios, and yeah, we can clearly see that. The acknowledging of the situation is not okay. And then asking, well, what can we do about it? And then acting based on the answers to, to the question, what can we do about it? Of creating that document and then mid semester getting. a new professor, I don't know if it was one or multiple to step in. And ultimately, it sounds like you work towards repairing that rupture, which is what we want, right?

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Right? Right. So, in this case, the repair was with this [00:33:00] group of this cohort of students with the university and with the program. Right. So, so it's, it's not always just about one person to one person. You can use this to affect change in a lot of different ways in a classroom, in a program, in a system.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: That's why it's called a multisystemic framework.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Thank you for that. That's really helpful. I want to bring our conversation back to this topic of that first strategy that you shared about, like, you got to take care of yourself, you have to, you know, You know, remain as healthy as you can be, focus on your own well being. And so I know in your bio you mentioned you'd like to watch K dramas, you like to eat yummy food.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Who doesn't? I'm a big fan of that too. But I'm curious because a lot of us in helping professions, we deal with a lot of stuff like compassion fatigue and burnout and [00:34:00] microaggressions and so many other things that could come up and that's just anyone. And it's further compounded when you are disabled and when you are a neurodivergent.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: So in your case, you're comfortable sharing. What are some things that you do personally for your own care and for your own well being, whether it's self care, community care, because I know you are committed to this advocacy work and you know, it It can be a lot sometimes. I mean, I say this from my own experience of like, just existing can be a lot.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And then on top of that advocating. And just because you share what you share doesn't mean it's going to work for us. But I always like to hear what other people do, because you never know someone might pick up on something that they could then use themselves.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Sure, sure. So so remember that I told you that the, the year that I spent in therapy trying to like figure out my life and [00:35:00] ableism and internalize ableism and preparing to do a doc program. During that time, I spent a lot of time. Figuring out how to undo my internalized ableism well enough that I could give myself permission to be unapologetic about pursuing pleasure, about pursuing rest things that I didn't have a choice.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: It took me getting to a place where I didn't have a choice because of how severe my challenges were at the time, but it may, I'm thankful for that time now because it made me come to this place where I am now. So, at the, at the very front of it is addressing the internal barrier. Of you need this break and you need this rest and you need these accommodations and the word need is a flexible word.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So just because you could do it without the accommodation doesn't mean you don't [00:36:00] need the accommodation. Right? So sorting through all of that is is a big piece of the work that I had that I really valued and still work through now to this day. It never ends. Then for beyond that, I really, I think my most important thing during the doc program has been my rest day.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: On Saturday, I have a rest day. I don't do anything. I don't plan anything. I don't go anywhere. My family already knows I am not going to, I might not even see you. I might just like be hiding in my little space that I have upstairs on the couch. Binging, binging Netflix, binging my K Dramas, or whatever it is that I'm doing, playing video games, whatever I'm doing, I am going to rest, and I am going to make myself not do any work.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: What you will learn is there is always [00:37:00] work to do. There's always more work to do than there is time to do it. So if you don't choose to rest and be purposeful with it, then you'll just work yourself into the ground. I can't do that. I don't have time to continue to go to the ER. I was going to the ER when I started my program.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Now I'm at a place where I'm not haven't been in two years. It's very nice. I like it. I want to not go back to the ER. So, you know, I'm going to keep my rest day. Something else that I really value is indulging in my special interests. Have different special interests depending on, you know, different moods.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: They change every couple of years. Right now, it just so happens to be K dramas, but it could be whatever. And I in, I overindulge in them because it is restorative. So, for neurodivergent folk, sometimes we get caught up with the idea that, Oh, well, you know, I don't have time to be spending time doing this other thing.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Because there's too much to do. [00:38:00] But that's what you need to do in order to be restored, in order to feel refreshed. So, indulge in your, in your special interest as much as you can while still managing to get enough done. And then beyond that you know, eat, drink water, spend time with friends and family.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And engage in advocacy that is refreshing to you. Advocacy is empowering if you do it right. So, that empowerment, it also feeds your soul and it helps you to keep going. Particularly for those of us that are people of the global majority, or disabled, or whatever our marginalizations may be, engaging in advocacy can actually be part of being mentally well. It develops interdependence.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: So many gems engaging in advocacy as being part of what helps you to [00:39:00] stay well. I love that you also shared that like, just because you could do things without accommodations doesn't mean that you don't need the accommodations. And what was the other thing that you said? That getting in involved and engaged in advocacy that is refreshing to you. I appreciate that. Because I always think about that, about like how all of us have a role to play and how we all can advocate in different ways. And you just got to find the way that is accessible to you or that is, and that is also sustainable to you. And I feel like for me personally, my podcast is one of those things. And it just so happens higher education is one of my special interests. So it kind of just all goes hand in hand. And then I also appreciate you sharing your rest day because not enough students see rest being modeled for them. And [00:40:00] because of that, they don't give themselves permission to rest.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: And so for them to see, hold up, there's someone who is in a doctorate program who is also an established, professional. They give themselves permission to rest for a full day and do nothing, nothing other than just special interest or do whatever you need to do to nourish yourself that could be watching K dramas, that could be playing video games, that could be doing nothing, napping, whatever you want to do it, it I feel like it provides other people with that ability to give themselves that opportunity too, to be like, you know what, you can rest. And also this is part of that long term sustainability piece of like. This is how we make sure that we're not at the E. R. This is how we make sure we can do this another day, another week, another month, another year is by taking care of ourselves throughout and making that part of our advocacy work is that it goes hand [00:41:00] in hand with it. So, wow. Okay, we covered a lot so far, but I'm curious if there was any other question that you were hoping that I would ask you.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Oh man actually, something that I don't get asked a lot about that I wish that more people would ask me about is how to have healthy. Relationships and families in the midst of whatever it is that they're doing. I am still a family therapist. Family therapy is what is driving all the things. I want to help, uh, BIPOC neurodivergent families thrive.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: And that's why I have my hands in so many different things. Including education, right? I, my son is a, a neurodivergent disabled human. I want to make Education is space that he can thrive in and he can have a different experience than what I had when I went to undergrad, right? These are things that, these are all, all these [00:42:00] different issues when you're multiply marginalized, you're facing all the things.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: That systems are throwing at you and trying to build a family in the middle of it. So yeah I think the question that I wish more people would ask me about is how do I? build and maintain healthy relationships with my Significant other my children my family members while I am doing the other things

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I'm so glad that I that I asked you about that about what I didn't ask. And I'm also so glad that you mentioned your children because you know, I don't know how much people want to share about their Private personal lives. And I know that about you and a part of me wanted to ask about it, but then I was like, I don't know.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I mean, it's not in the bio, so I don't know if I have permission to ask. So yes, let's go ahead and have you answer that question because I have a personal investment in your response as well as a mom of two neurodivergent kiddos [00:43:00] and, , and also someone who is a wife and as a partner who, you know, we all have, actually he's, he's disabled and neurodivergent as

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: well. Yeah.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Right. Right. So I think what I would I, what I encourage folks to do is to really have a strong sense of your value system with your family. A lot of times we get swept up in everybody else's value system, our religious value system, our social justice value system, our cultural value system.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Whatever the thing is, professional value systems, political I encourage folks to build a solid value system for you and your family. Figure out what is most important to y'all. Yes, y'all, I am in North Carolina, so I say y'all. What is the most inclusive word in the world? So that I got that from I forget what her name is. Oh, [00:44:00] Hannah. Hannah Gadsby, autistic comedian. So

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Silence.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: yes y'all got to come up with what your value system is and what makes y'all tick. And the way that you want to move throughout the world and what you hope to accomplish. And let everything else fall under that umbrella. Don't let anybody shake it.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Don't let any other system shake it. When other things come up against that, you can evaluate whether you need to shift something or not, but otherwise. You know, the other thing is what needs to change, not you, not your spouse, not your children. So, so yeah, that's, I wish that more people would, would pursue liberation in their own homes.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Prioritize liberation in your own homes. There's a lot of other areas where you do not have the power to ensure that liberation happens. But you can ensure that liberation happens in your own house [00:45:00] if you're willing to do the work.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. And that's actually one of the reasons why I homeschool now. I, I don't know that I will homeschool forever. Definitely think there's a lot of nuance to, you know, how we make decisions about our families, but it's definitely informed, at least for me by that, by wanting to, to. Build and set up a space, an educational space and like a home base where liberation is prioritized and where folks can be their full selves and have their needs met.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I'm not perfect. I definitely have my moments, you know, especially during certain cycles in the month, but I try my best and I ask for feedback and. I, and, and I follow up on that, like I act on it. So I appreciate you sharing that the whole list, this idea of being very clear about what your value system is for your family and honoring that. As we get close to [00:46:00] wrapping up, I'm curious if you have any other closing words or words of advice that we, you would want to share, , particularly to our BIPOC student listeners who are managing disabilities, who are managing neurodivergence. , and this is like thinking about them as they're either applying to or currently in graduate school.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Because I know that the two things can be challenging. Sometimes folks question whether or not to go back to school because of this concern around you, like you said, getting support, advocacy, et cetera. And then sometimes in, in, they find themselves already in the middle of graduate school. And, and, you know, noticing some of the barriers that come up of academic ableism that you mentioned earlier, so any, any closing words or, or words of advice that you want to share would be great.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Well, first I'll say that nothing is more important than you and your health. [00:47:00] So, I know that it can be difficult to it can be difficult to be a, a BIPOC disabled person and trying to, trying to navigate a system that was not built for us. It can be very difficult. I encourage you to make your decisions based on your wellness, now and in the future.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Don't pursue the future, and in the midst of that, you're forsaking your health and your wellness now. To the point where it's not healthy. And then the other thing is, I encourage you to lean on community. Oh my goodness, loneliness is what's killing us. By far, far and away, it's making our mental health issues worse, it's making our disabilities worse, all of that.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Loneliness, [00:48:00] community, relationship is the answer. Relationship is always the answer in my opinion, but I'm biased as a family therapist. But relationship is the key. So if you need community, join your online communities. We are very welcoming in these spaces. There are plenty of spaces that you can join, where you can find your group.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Case in point, I found a Black Girl Gamers group on Facebook in 2018, and I didn't know this space existed, and it like, changed my world. Oh my goodness. I've been Like a lone wolf as a black girl gamer for my entire life And there's like this whole community sitting there with 10, 000 black women and femmes all over the world that I did not know existed And so when I want to go nerd out with that particular group of folk, I have this community that I [00:49:00] can tap into so yeah, there are groups. There are spaces that exist that are waiting for you waiting to welcome you find them join them.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: I love that. Well, that reminds me of, , me discovering the women of color podcasters community because I, I clearly love podcasting. I've been doing it for several years. I don't plan to stop anytime soon. And when I discover that community, I was like, finally a space where I can like geek out on podcasting stuff and learn and listen and ask questions and be my full self, quirky self. And I'm, I'm accepted and embraced. I love that you shared that of like, find your communities, they're out there, whether you realize it or not. And you know what, if it's not, then maybe you can be the one to start it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: There's nothing, you know, saying that you can't be the one to create a community to if If you have the capacity for that. So I appreciate you sharing that. Well, I would love for you to, before I let you go to let us know how [00:50:00] folks can connect with you and support you and your work. Yeah. That way they can hear more from you.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: So the fastest way to connect with me is at the Family Fanatic. I am at The Family Fanatic on LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook . I am on LinkedIn the most, so that is the fastest way to reach me. As far as working with me you can visit bridgesflc.com/consulting and get all the information about our consulting programs, our trainings we have nine to 18 months consulting contract along with various two to two hour to two day trainings and workshops and speaking engagement there's all kinds of stuff up there that we do with organizations internationally. So if you want to work with me as a speaker, trainer, or consultant, please visit bridgesflc.com/consulting.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Great. We'll make sure to add those [00:51:00] links to the show notes. I want to thank you, Janelle, for sharing all your insights, words of advice, research insights to like you gave us a little bit of, of everything in this episode. I I feel like I learned a lot, , even though this is an area that I also have a special interest in, there's always more to learn. So I appreciate you for coming on the show and yeah, for, for having this conversation with us today.

Janelle A. Johnson, MA, LMFT-S: Thank you. Thank you so much. I had such a blast. I, I will definitely, we'll, we will be in touch. We'll stay in contact for sure. And, , and for you listeners out there, I hope you stay in contact with me too in the future. Thank you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: Thanks so much for listening. If you liked what you heard, here are three ways you can support the show. The first is to make sure you're subscribed and leave a [00:52:00] review on Apple Podcasts. The second way is to get your copy of my free resource kit linked in my show notes. This kit includes tools, worksheets, and podcast playlists on all things grad school, productivity, and personal development.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu: The third way to support my show is to follow me on social media. You can find me on Instagram with the handle at gradschoolfemtoring and on LinkedIn by searching my name. Thanks again for listening. And until next time.