194: The Latinx Guide to Grad School with Drs. Magdalena Barrera and Genevieve Negron Gonzalez

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Grad School Femtoring podcast. This is your host, Dra. Yvette. Today we have an episode all about guiding Latinx students in grad school. Specifically, I've got the co-authors of the newly published Latinx Guide to Graduate School. I'm so excited to have you both here. Our guests today are Dr. Magdalena Barrera and Dr. Genevieve Negron Gonzales.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Dr. Magdalena is an author, educator and university leader with 18 years of experience in higher education. A former first gen college student, she is an expert in diversity, equity and inclusion, particularly within Hispanic serving institutions. Magdalena's publications and speaking engagements explore navigational pathways and professional development for first gen and historically underserved scholars.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Dr. Genevieve is an associate professor in the School of Education at the University of San Francisco. She's an interdisciplinary scholar of education and immigration. Her research focuses on the educational and political lives of undocumented young people, deportation, immigrant families and violence at the border, and the educational navigations of Latinx communities. Welcome to the show Dras. Magdalene and Genevieve.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Thank you so much.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Thank you so much for having us.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I feel like just going yay. I would love for both of you to get us started by sharing- I know this is a big question, but just whatever you feel comfortable sharing- a little bit about your backstories or testimonios. Essentially, how did you get to where you are today? We can start with whoever is ready to start.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Okay, Genevieve is pointing to me, so that means gotta go first.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Go for it.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Again, thank you so much for the invitation to join you here today. Again, my name is Magdalena Barrera. I am the granddaughter of Mexican immigrants to the US Midwest. I grew up in a predominantly white suburb of Chicago. I was, as you mentioned, a first gen college student. I went to the University of Chicago. But part of my story in getting there was- my mom was someone who really pushed me to pursue my education and take that very seriously.She always used to tell me- because you're a woman and because you're a minority, you need to earn at least a master's degree.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Now, she would tell me this, because she worked at a laboratory that was affiliated with the University of Chicago, and she saw people being treated really differently when they had advanced degrees versus people who didn't. And so she wanted for me to have advantages like that. But you know, being the first in your family to explore that pathway, you really don't know what that means or how to get there. So I went to University of Chicago. I majored in English because I was aspiring to be a novelist. But I also found my way to Latin American studies as a second major, because that was giving me the histories of colonialism and race that I knew had shaped my family story, but that none of my other curriculum that I had ever experienced had ever introduced me to.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

I found academic culture to be very jarring many times. In particular, I went into college wanting to be a writer, but came out with terrible procrastination on my writing, feeling like I was never measuring up. Higher ed started to slowly kind of chip away at my confidence and love of writing. What helped me get through that experience was being connected to what's today called the Mellon Mays undergraduate fellowship program. It's to help identify underrepresented students who could do well in pursuing doctoral degrees in fields where they're underrepresented.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

That gave me the opportunity to do my first major research project, to be connected with a faculty mentor in Curtis Marez, who was the only Latino professor in the English department in my time at University Chicago. And being part of a Latino student group was really - those were my gente on campus, the people who kind of sustained me day to day. I took a year off after undergrad and then continued in my PhD program at Stanford. It's called modern thought and literature, aninterdisciplinary program. I wanted to study and ended up studying representations of Mexicans in early 20th century American literature, music and photography. It was a way for me to understand the world that my grandparents had experienced when they first came to the US and how they were seen.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

We could talk you know more about this, but when I was in grad school, I did really well while I was in classes-having the structure set out for me. But really felt like I was floundering when it was time for me to work on my dissertation and be more kind of self driven - to the point where I almost left academia when I was wrapping up. I didn't think that I was going to be successful. As a professor, you have to teach and my teaching hadn't been that stellar. You have to write and writing was proving to be very painful. So I thought, what have I just been training for the past seven years for?

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

But I found my way into a teaching postdoc that got me inspired to consider pursuing a faculty career at teaching centered institutions. That's how I landed at San Jose State in 2008. It was very fortunate. to land here. I was tenured and promoted to associate in 2014, and became the first woman in my department's 50 year history to be promoted to full professor and elected to serve as department chair. I could say in my time here- which to be real, says more about the challenges that women of color face in higher ed and not necessarily my exceptionalism or anything. But I've learned so much from my students, my colleagues here.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

And I've begun to focus my research- through their influence, the impacts they've had on me- into how we navigate higher education as historically underserved scholars. In 2020, I was invited to become part of a academic affairs leadership team. I'm now the Vice Provost for faculty success. I oversee all the faculty, hiring, onboarding, getting faculty through their different career milestones. And I'll wrap up by saying it's really meaningful to be in a leadership role, where now I am in a position to guide others through the structures of the university. It's a very applied work, which I think really suits my Virgo nature. And I also head out the HSI initiatives for our institution. That also has kept me really connected as part of a team of very committed colleagues. It's just very grounding. We're very focused on student success, and that's where I find the meaning of staying in higher education. I'll turn things over to Genevieve.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I always love- no matter how many times I hear Magdalena share her story, I always love just hearing it. I hear new things each time and I'm struck by the places where there are similarities. Then there are places where there are real differences. So I grew up on the US Mexico border in South San Diego County- just like I said, the very south part of the county, which butts right up along the border. I always start my story there, because so much of who I am and what I've done and where I come from traces back to growing up there at that particular moment of time in that space. This was like, you know, I was a teenager in the 90s.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

This was a period that was really marked by really heightened attacks on immigrant communities. I mean, I could talk for 20 minutes about just that alone. But there was this very particular moment on the border that was the period of time when I was thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old. I began to get involved in political work. My understanding of what it meant to be involved in political work at that time was like, electoral stuff voting, right? That was my only conception for how change happened was through voting. So I got involved in very mainstream political work related to immigrant rights work and sort of political engagement and voting registration in Latino communities.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

That period really fundamentally shaped sort of my own understanding of the world, my own conception of myself in that understanding of the world, and at a fundamental level shaped my political consciousness. I was also a first generation college student. I have an older sister, so she sort of paved the way two years before me. But the two of us were the first time our family to go to college. I went to UC Berkeley. I landed there in the midst of a very heightened political and racial context. I was among the last classes admitted with affirmative action policies to the University of California. I started in the fall of 1996, which meant that I was just on that very tail end of affirmative action, which was outlawed through Proposition 209 in California.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

What that meant is that I like was 17 years old, landed on a campus that was enmeshed in in struggle. I learned a lot from my classes, and from my professors and my graduate student instructors. But really, a lot of my education that happened when I was in college happened because of the political activism that I was involved in. That was like, really, truly my major. That's where I spent most of my time- more than my classes and in the library. So I had a different kind of relationship to graduate school than Magdalena shared. My parents sacrificed a lot to get my sister and I to college and through college, and I always thought that was the end of the road. I never had any conception of anything different, especially being at UC Berkeley in this moment.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I loved my undergraduate years at Berkeley. But also I saw the campus really radically changed because of the banning of affirmative action during that period of time. By the time I finished, I was like, yeah, see you later. There was no part of me that imagined that I would be back for a graduate degree. I graduated. I was working already, like 30 hours a week as an undergraduate at a community organization in Oakland that's called the The School of Unity and Liberation. I graduated. It was kind of like it felt like a big deal in my family. But it was also like, I've already been at this job. I've already been working 30 hours a week. Yeah, put me on the schedule for 10 more hours, even though I've already been working more than that, you know.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

This is my path. There was no part of me that thought that I would come to graduate school. In a nutshell, I was doing essentially political education and grassroots organizing training for young people in the city of Oakland, California. And in that work, some questions started to come up to me about how radical political consciousness is developed among young people who come from struggling communities, oppressed and marginalized backgrounds. As I was in this small nonprofit, I was working an 80 plus hour work weel. Tthese questions were coming up in the work and I never had time to really fully engage in them.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

So when I went back to graduate school, it was not because I was going to be a professor. When I went back to graduate school, it was because I thought I'm gonna go and have some time and some space to be able to think about and read about and learn about these ideas and these questions that are coming up. Then I'm going to come back and I'm gonna do the same job that I was doing before. That was that was completely my plan. I went to graduate school at UC Berkeley. It was the only graduate program that I applied to, because I already had a built community here. I felt like that was going to be really critical when I was in graduate school. So I applied to one school and for me, it was like, either I'm gonna get in and I'm gonna probably go, or I'm not gonna get in and then I'll keep on keepin on elsewhere.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I ended up getting into graduate school. My field is education. I was in a program called the Social and Cultural Studies in Education, which is sort of like a kind of a radical misfit in the School of Ed where a lot of us are thinking about education, but from a lens of outside of schools and schooling. So I was really looking at political consciousness and political activism as a space for education and consciousness raising. To make a very long story short, I had two kids when I was in graduate school. I had my son. I did a Masters PhD, like a culminating... your first couple of years, you get your Masters. Then you continue on in your coursework and it culminates in your PhD.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I had my son probably two weeks after I got my master's degree. I didn't even go to graduation or anything. I was like, I got other things going on. My son was born about two years into the program and then I had my daughter, four years later when I was in the dissertation writing process. And I mention that because it's also very present in the book, in terms of thinking about- you know, I felt like I was in a place where the expectation was- if you had kids when you're in graduate school that they were supposed to kind of not take up space- physically, but also mentally or emotionally. And my kids, you know, there's two of them. They took up space. They took up space in my life, and they took up space in my own journey through the institution in ways that were amazing and that really shaped that entire experience for me. They're now very, very big. I look back on that time with a lot of fondness.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I graduated. I adjuncted for a couple of years at San Jose State in the Mexican American studies department. That's where Magdalena and I first became colleagues and friends. I was also adjunct at UC Berkeley in a program called global poverty and practice at that period. I adjusted for a couple of years while I was on the job market, and ended up landing my position at the University of San Francisco and began there in the fall of 2013. I got tenure- went up for tenure early at USF- got tenure there. And recently, I was promoted to full professor. So I am sort of hunkered down and continuing my work in the School of Ed. I'm fortunate to be in a place where there is a real respect for the kind of research work that I'm interested in doing, which is community engaged and relevant on the ground to communities. I have just a stellar group of colleagues and students that I get to work with every day.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Well, I want to say first off, felicidades. I didn't realize- in your bio I have you listed as associate professor.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

It's all good. It's a very recent development.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Let's get it straight. Also, I didn't realize that we all had so much in common. Magdalena, I am a fellow Virgo, former Mellon fellow. I also got a degree in English for undergrad. And Genevieve I also had my first child in grad school. I'm also a mom of two. I had my son in grad school, and then my daughter after that. It's nice to have some things to bond over. So I want to know- I mean, I feel like I have an impression based on my own lived experience of the things that I wish and needed when I was in grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But I want to know, specifically, the conversations that the two of you had about what inspired you to create the Latinx guide to grad school? How did you get started collaborating on this project? Because I think that a lot of us who have this experience in higher ed- there's a lot of ideas and there's a lot of things that we say, we should work on this and this and this. But you both actually got it done. I would love to know what inspired it and how did you come to collaborate?

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

I'll jump in and start off by saying that this book is really the culmination of a conversation that Genevieve and I began having a long time ago. Maybe around 2010, I think, is when you joined what was then called Mexican American Studies at San Jose State. Now it's Chicana and Chicano studies. But that's when we became colleagues. I was in my second or third year of being an assistant professor. Genevieve was my colleague who was a lecturer teaching in the graduate program. I remember early on, I got assigned to do a teaching evaluation to visit Genevieve's class. I remember sitting there on the periphery and just watching.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

And just feeling like oh my god. This woman is on fire. I just love everything she's doing. I see the kind of community she's created in her classroom for the students. I just knew she was someone that- it's like, this is a really smart mujer that I have a lot to learn from and want to be engaged with. So we began connecting in that way, really thinking about how do we support the students that we shared at that time- supporting their professional development, their intellectual interest, helping them take ownership of the really great ideas and potential that they had and start to make that a reality. We would always just knock on each other's doors and say, hey, you know, this is the feedback I gave to so. What do you think? What else can we say to help her develop her project? Or how would you go about this? Always just checking in with each other on how to do this.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

And I'll just say that one thing I that really stuck with me is I had a fellowship and spent a year away. When I came back, Genevieve had developed a series of workshops that are for first gen Latinx students to help see themselves as writers and to claim a writerly identity, and to understand different parts of the writing process. I just love that she developed this totally on her own, on her own time, as a support for the students. When I came back to town, we had the idea of having these weekly writing check ins where students could either just come on by- like, we're going to be writing in community, and let's just work on whatever we're doing together. But not be alone in the writing process. Also, if a student had a question aboutt- hey, I'm struggling with my thesis here, or how do I make the leap to this part of my essay. We're on call- like, hey, we're all here. Let's have a conversation about how to do that. I just loved that we were working to create spaces of being open about the processes of what we do in higher ed. And we continued the conversation after Genevieve left for USF. I'll let you pick up the story from there.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Yeah. I think the other part of it in terms of the background is that we both just take teaching really seriously. We take mentorship really seriously. We really loved our students and really saw our responsibility to them in a really clear way. I'm spending x number of hours with you when you're in my classroom over the course of this semester. But we would go home thinking about these students. Like, oh man, I really love that he's picking this project and thinking about it in this way. How can I support him? And that comes from a place of just love for the work that we do, love for the students that we work with, and a feeling of sort of responsibility around making sure that we are supporting them in their academic pursuits.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

So the continuation sparked there and then continued. At that point, we were no longer sharing students. But we were in constant conversation with each other through email and through text- and through a periodic cup of coffee or a drink here and there when we managed to be able to find ourselves in the same city. We would just talk about the work that we were doing to support students and the challenges that were coming upfor them and how we were thinking about this- that sort of thing. So in a very real way we were just sort of supporting each other as colleagues and thinking about how we support and do this work that was so meaningful to us.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Then a few years ago- Magdalena was always better with the dates on this than I am. But a few years ago, a colleague of ours- a mutual friend, basically, who is a colleague of mine at USF and that we both actually know separately from other parts of our lives. She reached out to both of us, because she was looking for a book that she could give to incoming graduate students. And she said- hey, I'm just wondering... her name is Kathy Cole. She's in the politics department at the University of San Francisco. She said- I'm just wondering, do you know of any book that's for a brand new Latinx student who's entering into graduate school? Do you know of anything that exists that I could give as a gift?

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I was like, I don't really think I've ever seen anything like that. And she said, I'm gonna hit up Magdalena as well and see if she has any suggestions. She was like, I knew that if something like that existed, then the two of you would know about it. If something like that doesn't exist, you should write that. We were like, okay, yeah, whatever. I hung up the phone. Then she had the same conversation with Magdalena. The two of us ended up chatting. Hey, did Kathy mention that to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, what do you think? I mean, I don't know. That sounds pretty good. You So we agreed to sit down and share a meal and a cup of chai, and begin the process of really, truly batting around the idea.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

When we first sat down for that first conversation, it was like, let's get together for lunch and then we'll see. Let's just talk about this and see if it feels like there's something there. And basically, by the time the lunch was over, we had a table of contents. The thing was mapped out. We were talking timeline. So the project really came to be from our mutual passion for supporting students. Also feeling like we were having the same conversation over and over again with students. They would hit this particular milestone and have this particular set of challenges and we would have this conversation. Then two weeks later, you'd have the same conversation with somebody else.We were feeling like it wouldn't be really helpful if there was a way that one, we could help students anticipate what was to come. And two, to talk in a really honest and explicit way like we do in the safety of our office. In a lot of ways the book is like basically, if you were sitting with us in the safety of our offices with that sort of real talk kind of conversation. What's what we aspired to do, and it came pretty easily in that sense.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Yeah, yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I feel like it's such a beautiful story of how the seed got planted for the book in terms of both of you already knowing each other. And then someone who you both have in common realizing that, wow, this is something that both of you could bring in your strengths, too. That's why I'm not surprised that you got together and were like- there's the outline, or the Table of Contents, you name it. I'm curious, though, as you were starting the project, how did each of your research backgrounds and I guess your previous experience- whether it's your research or your DEI work- how did these things inform the book out or shape the book in some way?

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Something that's another kind of commonality between us that's sort of funny is that both of us are sort of higher ed scholars by accident in a lot of ways. I never sought to specifically focus on higher ed in my work. But when I was doing my research work, I was working on my dissertation- my dissertation focuses on the political consciousness of undocumented young people. And n a lot of ways, coming to that work was like coming home to my own political sort of origins in terms of the border and that sort of thing.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

But what undocumented young people were were rallying around at that period of time in the early 2000s was the DREAM Act. So I ended up looking at higher ed because the students were focused on the question of access to higher ed. But you know, I think that it's a really interesting questio and I don't know that anybody's actually asked us this specific question to this point. But as I was thinking about it, there's really two things that come to mind for me. The first is that- I think thinking about and writing about and working with undocumented students for the better part of the past 20ish years at this point have meant that the question of access to higher education has been at the very forefront of my thinking.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

And in particular thinking about the ways that structural forces shape educational opportunities basically. There's very clear ways in which that plays out for undocumented young people who are seeking a path to higher education. But it also means that in terms of sort of the question of access to higher education and the way that the institution is not set up to foster that kind of access, the ways in which- even in a place like California, where there is institutional support for undocumented students- there are still really, really profound barriers. So thinking about the question of the way that structural forces shape educational opportunity is something that has been at the forefront of my thinking for a lot of years, because of because of my own research background and my focus.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Then the second thing is that- I think one of the things that I...I'm somebody who has studied and written about undocumented young people. But in a lot of ways, the way that I think about that is that I've learned from undocumented young people and had the opportunity to learn from undocumented people over the course of the past almost 20 years. One of the things that has always stuck with me, and that has been true in all the contexts in which I've done this research- four year colleges, undocumented young people outside of school, undocumented students at community colleges, undocumented students at Jesuit universitiess. One of the things that has remained true in all of those spaces, time and time again, is that I really learned from undocumented students that it is a critical importance and it's one's responsibility to always be looking behind you, right?

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

That you are always looking for who's coming behind you and how you are able to use your foothold to hold that door a little bit further open. And thinking about the ways that even when you don't have very much yourself, that it's your responsibility to think about- how do I split this in two and share it with somebody else? And I say that in that way, because I think for us, in a lot of ways, I think there was probably parts of me that felt like- I can't write this book. What do I know about grad school? Just because I got through graduate school doesn't mean I actually know anything about graduate school. But I think that what I've learned from working with undocumented young people is that even when you're still figuring it out as you're going through, you have to be constantly thinking about how you support the next crew of folks who are coming up behind you. Those are the things that I think for me have shaped my own engagement in this.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

And just to build on that, thinking about how the effort we made to try to make this book as comprehensive as possible. You know, the starting point was that it's co-authored. As we kind of touched upon before, Genevieve and I shared some of the same challenges getting through grad school- some of which are very common to many historically underserved students. But we also had really different experiences in many ways and different areas of strength that we brought to that experience. So in the book, we really aim to include a lot of personal anecdotes, stories, just to exemplify some of the things we're trying to talk about and be real about- we had a lot to figure out at the time.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

I think also that stems from just being mindful of the diverse backgrounds and interests of the many students whom we've mentored over the years- just knowing that Latinx is a very broad umbrella for many very distinctive experiences. And to never just assume that there's the one way to be, or all Latinos are into XYZ. That's not how we are. That was one thing. Another is- we organized a process for soliciting feedback on the first full draft that was really powerful. Each of us invited five former or current students and five colleagues. So ten students total, ten colleagues total, who drew from their experiences in reading that manuscript to point to additional topics that could be helpful. To say- hey, you talked about this, but you didn't go into as much detail about that. And I think that could be really critical.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

That led to one big chapter turning into two separate ones. I think the focus is just much better on those now. Some of them also contributed consejos from their experiences. It's just added to the voices in the book. Genevieve contacted our colleague, Carolina Valdivia, who wrote a really excellent FAQs for undocumented students. So again, just thinking about -we've been through this, but there's other parts of the experience that we have less familiarity with that we want to be able to represent in this meaningful way in the book. Right down to the cover art. It was really a pleasure to work with other Adriana Arriaga- she goes by other Adriana la Artista- who's a former student of mine at San Jose State and has an MFA. We wanted to work with her to design a cover that would capture the diversity of Latinx experiences. Thinking about the graduation caps that students decorate- just making sure it's not just only Mexican themed because that's our backgrounds- that Adriana, Genevieve and I share.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

So just thinking through it on that way. I mean, really, the message in the book is there's no one right or wrong way to be Latinx- even down to the Spanish that we incorporate into the book. There's the note about, like, hey, not all of us grew up speaking Spanish. It's in there not to make you feel bad if you grew up in an English dominant household- but rather, to have a political message to the book and to center these oppositional ways of speaking back to the university. There's no one way to be Latinx and there's no one way to do grad school- from where you choose to go, to the kind of focus, the program that you end up going to, whether you stay close to home or not, how you apply your degree afterwards.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

It's like, here's just a bunch of things to think about as you figure out your journey, the pathway that's right for you. Just because we made particular choices doesn't mean that that was the best or the only way to do that. And now that the book is out, we're really proud of everything that we managed to include in it. But we had a conversation early on with a grad student who was sharing a part of her journey, which was choosing to stop out for a time of her graduate program. And we realized, oh man, we didn't even talk about that in the book. It's like, the more that's out there, you realize- god, like, we could have added this. We forgot to talk about this. So even when it's done, you realize- no, it's not quite done, because there is so much in this experience and so many different pathways through.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, yeah. I appreciate the intentionality behind your messaging, both with what you provided within the content, the research, the writing, how you solicited feedback, how you integrated others within the cover and even writing certain sections of the book. That's amazing. And I can relate to the feeling with drafting a book myself of, of not being able to fit everything in. There's so many things that can come up for Latinx students, and especially first gen Latinx students. I'm wondering- for both of you, what were some of the challenges? Because there's a reason why not a lot of folks are able to publish books. It is a big endeavor. What were some of the challenges that came up for you? And are there any strategies in particular that helped you overcome them?

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I mean, I think the main challenge is that the vast majority of this book was written over the pandemic.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

My portions of the book, I literally wrote them in 20 minute chunks really the entirety of the way through. In 20 minute chunks while my kids were flanked beside me- one in fourth grade one, one in ninth grade, learning at home. Making sure - okay, oh man, did your zoom disconnect. Okay, where's your thing? What are you looking for? Whatever. And I say it that way, because if I didn't have a three year old at home, that would have been a really different thing. But I remember thinking in the beginning of the writing process- okay, how is this potentially going to derail this project? I had a bit of a more...I'm married to a registered nurse who works at a county hospital. So I had a pretty clear sense that this was... other people are like, they're gonna be out of school for two weeks. I was like, they're not gonna be out of school for two weeks.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I had a pretty clear, realistic sense of how bad this was going to be- maybe not how bad, but that it was going to be quite bad- from the beginning. I knew this was going to be months long. I knew that my kids were not going to return to school after spring break. And I remember thinking early on, how is this going to derail this? Or what is going to be derailed in this process? There were things in my life that did get derailed in the process of the pandemic. But I decided that this wasn't going to be one of them. I knew that I would be able to write in 20 minute chunks. And in many ways, co-authoring something is harder, because you're moving other limbs that are not your own.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I mean, sometimes co-authoring is really, really hard. And then sometimes the fact that you're co authoring makes actually everything so much easier. This project was for me that. I knew that Magdalena was also plugging along at home. I knew that she would...we were checking in and sending emails and catching each other here and there as everything was spiraling wild out of control. But the fact that we were both kind of plugging ahead. We had this timeline and we kept to it. In a lot of ways, it became something that felt like...you know, as everything was so scary and so hard in the world broadly- and having a frontline healthcare worker in my house, this was one of the things that I was like- okay, we can do this one step at a time.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

To me that that's both a challenge and also, sort of how we dealt with it. I also want to mention that we work with a really fantastic editorial team at Duke University Press. I think that for folks who might be listening to this and are interested in doing something similar, I think having a good editor who really really understands your work, and is not trying to make it into something else, and who is as excited as you are about the project from the beginning. We worked with Latina editorial staff at Duke and that made all the difference.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Yeah, I'll just say part of my favorite story about how the book came about is in part that we started meeting in 2018. That was when we had this big lunch date of brainstorming what topics would be include. Like we were mentioning earlier, the pieces came together so clearly. Like, oh, we would want to cover one, two, three, four, five. And this could be the order they go in. So we initially started drafting a book proposal and an intro chapter. And Genevieve had the opportunity to meet up with our editor, Gisela Fosado, at Duke University, from another book project she was working with Gisela on and also co authored a book.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

We initially had been thinking to go with a very different type of press. We didn't imagine that a typical university press would be interested in a book like this, because it's really different than the typical academic monograph. And Genevieve was just picking her brain and said, I've got this other project I'm working on. Gisela was so great. I believe she told you- let me take a look at it first before you send it to that other press. She read our prospectus and the first chapter, and she was like, I'm really behind this project. That was such an amazing boost of confidence- like, okay, we're not the only ones that see the value in this or are going to be championing this project.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

That relieves some of the pressure of having the book contract. And it was also good for me in two ways- one, working with an experienced co-author who had worked, collaborated with other colleagues on other books. It's her familiarity with the publishing process- this was my first book- really provided me with a lot of guidance and understanding of what the stages would be. But then also, Genevieve is someone who is just a delight to work with. There was a lot of trust in our process that I will say, really helped me push past my typical procrastination that I developed way back in 1993 at the University of Chicago. It's been going thirty something years. I don't know how I made my way through grad school, through tenure and promotion.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Writing has always been very slow and painful for me. But it's changing now. This experience of co-authoring has been really revelatory for me, because I will say, Genevieve helped us set really aggressive internal deadlines that I met. I pushed myself to meet as best I could, because I did not want to let her down- in part because she was still going through her promotion process for full. I'm like, I am not going to be the one who sat on something and then let a major project not count towards her next milestone. I can't live with that. I'm not going to do that.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

But also, Genevieve is someone who really modeled for me just getting the first draft done. Type it out. Share it. I'm so reserved with my writing. I'm like, oh my god. What are people going to say? Is this pretty enough? Whatever. And Genevieve would say- okay, I'm gonna work on my part of that chapter. I'll have it in there by the end of the week. Then by Friday, I get a message saying it's in there. Tell me what you think. It was like- damn, I better spend the rest of today writing out my half that I was supposed to have. It was just good. It got me out of my own mind.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

That was my biggest challenge. And my biggest challenge as a writer- being too long alone ruminating and not talking out the ideas. Just being like- hey, does this land? Does this communicate what I'm trying to have it communicate? And having a lot of trust, because there were times when I'm like... I added this in and Genevieve would say- I don't know if that really works. It's like, okay cool. We have a vision that we're working towards. I'm not afraid of feedback. We're gonna do something really great here and we have to be in partnership and clear communication to achieve it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's really great. I wish that more folks were taught how to write in collaboration, because you learn so much from other folks and how they navigate their writing process. It's really a great exercise.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Especially if you... the reason why it was so amazing to me is because I come from an academic field of literary studies, where things are mostly solo authored.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

It feels like a lot of pressure on you as the writer to come up with a whole book. So this was really great, and I've had some other really key co-authoring experiences in recent years that have really turned around my feelings about writing and my approach to it. In some fields, it comes as a matter of course. But even there, it's not to say it's not rife with competition and hierarchy and toxicity. It's something to do as well about the trust in the relationship and having a shared, common goal for the political and applied purpose of the project.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Right.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I absolutely agree with that. And I also just think that when we began writing, it really did feel like it was pouring for... I mean, the manuscript actually came in - was it 20,000, Magdalena? 20,000 words over the goal.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

Yeah.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

And we sent it into the editorial team at Duke. As Magdalena mentioned, Gisela Fosado has been really, really incredible. I also want to mention Alejandro Mejia, who also was editorial support on the project. When we submitted it-I had heard horror stories about people submitting things that were too long to the press after...I mean, we had a written contract. Then the press coming back and being like, you gotta cut 20,000 words or whatever.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

We kind of submitted it and were a little bit nervous. I was like, do I acknowledge it or not? I guess I gotta acknowledge it. You're not going to not notice 20,000 extra words. So I kind of acknowledged it when we submitted and then [name] and Ale replied and were like, I don't think there's anything that can be cut. This looks fantastic- which is like, phew, okay. I think the process of collaborating in that way and feeling like yeah, actually, this is the collective offering that we have. It's probably good to get it out in the world.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

One last thing I'll say is, I wonder if we dazzled them because- thanks to Genevieve's timeline setting- we got our full manuscript revised back to the press something like four months ahead of time. I remember Gisela's emails said, I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor because this never happens. Maybe that dazzled them, and maybe they didn't notice the extra 20k words- until they see this podcast. Then they'll be like, oh man.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

We are getting close to wrapping up. But I want to ask another question about what your hopes are for the book- its impact, how it will be received or is being received by others in the wider academic community. What are your hopes and dreams for the book, especially now it's out- so you're seeing some of these things come to fruition, I can imagine.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

I'll jump in and say that my hope for the book is that people who find their way to it or who receive it from someone will feel the love and sincere carino that we poured into it from the start. That was what was in our hearts. People have said it feels like having two tias or madrinas sit you down and just open up and share their experiences and storytelling around cafecito and pan. I'm proud of that aspect of the book. And it's interesting- something that's been on my mind is there are real critiques out there, valid critiques, about academic navigational how to books. They can be problematic at times, because folks can say, what do they really do to change the inequities, the structures that are very toxic and harmful to navigate and that wear us down at times.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

To be very clear, we wrote this in the hopes that- as Genevieve said earlier- that we push the door open further with our toehold so that more of us can join the effort to remake the Academy for the better. It's not to get you through so that you do the same thing to other future students that were done to you. No. We're going to re-envision ways of being in the academy, because we're going to more holistically bring our cultural values, our ways of being into the daily work of the institution. Really, I hope it'll serve as a model for how we open up these navigational pathways for continued transformation. People have already asked us- when are you going to write the Latinx guide to undergrad or the Latinx guide to the professoriate? Now maybe we have a whole series of books. I'm trying to talk Genevieve into maybe thinking about the professoriate one with me.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Yeah. I share so much of what Magalena and I shared in terms of hopes, which I think is why this all came together so beautifully. The book was written because we had a shared hope for what it could be in the world. And the reception has been really great. Folks have shared with us the different little pieces that have resonated with them. We had a book event last week, and this young woman came up and was like, I heard about your book on Tik Tok. I was like, what? Not a sentence I expected ever to come out of anyone's mouth. Then my own students are telling me-when I see posts about your book on Instagram, I always jump in and say, that's my professor. They're proud to see it out in the world.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I think our hope really fundamentally has been all along that when students pick up the book, there's sort of two things. One is that there's race as a social construct. It also fundamentally shapes our lives in ways that are very clear and are undeniable. And yet, when we think about advice for graduate school and things like that, there is this expectation that you're going to set your identity aside. Like- here is how you approach finding a mentor. We wanted students to be able to pick up a book and say- wow, there's a section on having kids when you're in graduate school. Wow, there's a section on how you talk to your mom who may not understand why you're still in school, and may actually be a little bit frustrated that you're not out in the world earning a real paycheck.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

We wanted to talk about- look, you might have to encounter racist and racial dynamics in classrooms or with advisors or with professors. It is not you. And also here's how to think about this. Here's how to approach it. We wanted Latinx students or would be students to be able to pick up a book and be like- wow, this actually really speaks to me, and that helps me situate and contextualize what I'm experiencing. And knowing that I'm not alone- because what so many of us, I think, have is that experience of feeling like we're alone. And we're the only ones who are doubting in the ways that we are or that are struggling in the ways that we are.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Our hope in the book was being able to document in really clear form - it's not only you. It's actually structural and institutional. Also, there are ways to navigate this. I think the other big hope is just that it feels like a collective offering. Part of our decision to include the consejos from other colleagues of ours is because our hope is that it really feels to students like when they read this book, they can really feel this idea that there are many of us who have come before you. We're all cheering you on. We don't know you, but we love you and we believe in you. We know that we have the capacity to transform the institution. This book, our hope is a reminder of you for you, that we've come before you on this path. People will come behind you on this path as well and we're all part of this lineage. And the folks that have come before you believe in you and love you and trust in all that you can do. In the moments where maybe you're doubting that yourself, lean on that as a way to get you through.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's great. I feel like those are really great closing words. But I want to ask - Magdalena, if you had any other closing words? Or Genevieve- anything else that maybe you're like, I didn't get to add this one thing?

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

No. I mean, that's the heart of it really. It's just been a pleasure to have engaged in this project. To now, see it out in the world, to see students' reactions, to be talking about it - and have opportunities like this, to connect with you. The retaking of academia starts now. Like, let's do it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes. For the folks who are listening to the podcast and who want to stay in touch, or who just resonated and want to connect with you in some way, shape, or form, what is the best way for them to reach you?

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

I'm kind of terrible on the things that I shouldn't be terrible on. I'm terrible on Twitter. I'm terrible on LinkedIn. I mean, you can find me on those places. I don't really actively use them. But also I will say - I am really... I take my job really seriously and I'm really responsive on email. I get emails from students who are not my students, who are not in my classroom, who are not in my institution, who reach out for support. And I reply to every single one of them. I'm like old and grumpy about it - social media. But the best way to reach me is through email. I'm easily findable on the USF website. It's also my first initial and then my last name with no spaces- gnegrongonzales@usfca.edu.

Dr. Magdalena Barrera

I am on a bunch of those platforms. It doesn't mean that I'm any better about them. I had a picture when our books came in and I tagged Genevieve. It turns out it was a different Genevieve. Then I saw it go viral and I'm like, oh man. This other person is like- um, I didn't co-author the book with you. So the best place to find me very easily is probably on LinkedIn just under Magdalena Barrera. But also the same as Genevieve, I'm very responsive over email and I'm always happy to connect. My email is magdalena.barrera@sjsu.edu. I just welcome all kinds of contact. If you read the book, let us know what resonated with you, how you may be sharing it out or applying the advice. If you're interested in talking more, invite us to your campus. We're open to considering that. So please, just let's keep the conversation going.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I want to thank you both. Dras. Magdalena, Genevieve, thank you for coming on the show today, for sharing this beautiful, beautiful ofrenda of yours that I know is going to continue to shape and carve a space for Latinx students all over the country. So thank you.

Dr. Genevieve Negrón-Gonzales

Thank you.