186: How to Manage Doubt and Uncertainty in Grad School with Marisol Jimenez

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Welcome back, everyone to another episode of the Grad School Femtoring podcast. This is your host, Dra. Yvette. Today we have what is probably going to be really relevant topic for this podcast community- and for me too- which is on managing doubt and uncertainty. And specifically, today we're gonna talk about doubt and uncertainty in grad school. Like I said, who hasn't felt doubt and uncertainty, right?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Our guest today is Marisol Jimenez. She is a first generation college and graduate student and a daughter of immigrants. She's the co founder of Academic Amigas, an Instagram page focused on providing free and accessible resources for women of color. Her research highlights the experiences of Latinx immigrant families and their experiences in Chicago Public Schools. I'm really happy to have you on the show. Welcome to the podcast, Marisol.

Marisol Jimenez

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you today.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Me too. Me too. For the folks who want to get to know you a little bit more- myself included- can you tell us a little bit more about who you are, what you do? And especially, whatever you feel comfortable sharing about your background, backstory, and how you became who you are today?

Marisol Jimenez

Yes. As you said, I am a first generation college student. Both of my parents are immigrants from Michoacan in Mexico. I guess my journey with graduate school and college- everything started when I was really young. I always wanted to be a journalist. I always wanted to be a writer to some capacity. My relationship with writing was always really difficult as it is, for a lot of us. Writing is very personal. And so I think that's where I kind of got the hang of- as soon as I started going to college, I took a class on inequalities in education.

Marisol Jimenez

It changed my life. I realized I could use my words for good, and I could make an impact on a lot of kids lives. That's kind of how I decided to go to grad school at first. And going through that very first year as a master student, I realized that what I was lacking the most was community. Ever since then, I have been a community builder- both at my institution, in creating organizations for people who look like me, who think like me. And also online through Academic Amigas, building communities there for people who are across the US and sometimes even in Europe, and being able to feel and connect with other people who are like you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You know, it's really good that early on you knew to focus on community building and on creating the spaces that may not necessarily be there, because that actually can be a form of solace and support, especially when you're struggling. If you're dealing with feelings of doubt, it helps to have someone else to talk to about it, to share in that experience. We're going to talk about doubt and uncertainty, and I'm interested in hearing more about how your work with building communities has shaped or impacted your thoughts on on doubt. We'll get to that in a little bit.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But before we go and dive into the topic, I want to hear a little bit more about kind of what you mean or how you interpret doubt and uncertainty. When I think about it, for me, it's an experience of feeling a lack of confidence, or maybe not feeling 100% confident in your decision to go to graduate school. I know I had those feelings, where I was like- did I make the right decision? Sometimes it's a lack of confidence of being able to finish, especially if you're first gen, especially if you're not familiar with the hidden curriculum. It's your first time working on these milestones. There's a lot of fear and uncertainty with like- am I actually going to finish? Then that adds to you feeling uncertainty and doubt. So I'm wondering, what are your thoughts on that? When you think about uncertainty and doubt, what are some of the things that come to mind for you?

Marisol Jimenez

Yeah, I think embarking on this journey of graduate school, especially as a first gen, obviously you've never had anyone do this before you. So asking the questions to the people who you know is very difficult, because you don't have a lot of people to ask these questions to. You spoke a little bit about the hidden curriculum, right? I think for me, the most pivotal moment was realizing that I don't know what I don't know. I was so far behind all of my peers, because they were talking about things that I didn't even know existed or were important or the politics of getting ahead in graduate school.

Marisol Jimenez

You really do feel this sense of like complete isolation from the life that you know back home. Your parents, your community, everything that you know back home, you feel completely separated from them in graduate school. Often, we have to attend graduate school at predominantly white institutions in predominantly white neighborhoods, and all your professors don't look like you. You are forced to be isolated and have to adapt to these new communities and to this new culture that you know nothing about. In that moment- and I think similarly, the way that I thought about it is - I felt like I didn't belong. I knew in my heart that I didn't belong, because there was no way that I could catch up to be where all my peers were in time for me to be successful in this program.

Marisol Jimenez

And I think those moments of doubt made it so difficult to speak up in class. I didn't speak up in my my seminars at least for the first two years, because I felt like whatever I had to say was never as insightful as what my peers had to say. And therefore, I didn't want to take up space. I didn't want to take up time. The self doubt affected me in my writing. I would sit in front of my computer for hours, and I would not produce anything because I thought that no matter what I produced, it was never going to be good enough, and my professors were going to judge me. They were going to realize that I was an imposter. I had just gotten by and someone accepted me because I was lucky, or because I have a good personality and I'm outgoing. And that doubt kept me, I think, from so many opportunities- so many networking moments, so many moments where I could have grown and developed as a scholar. I think that was difficult. It wasn't until I talked about it with my advisor- who's a Black woman- that I think my relationship with doubt really started to change.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. I just want to take a minute really quick to affirm and validate your experience, because what you said- that could have come out of my mouth. And so many of us have that exact same- that shared experience of, I didn't participate. I struggled with writing- even shame with writing. Being told- sometimes flat out told- that we weren't good enough, and then feeling like oh my gosh, it must have been a mistake. I must have been admitted by mistake. They're gonna catch me. They're gonna kick me out. Whatever it is, it's just those feelings are so so common for a lot of us who are first gen. Then it gets further compounded if you're first gen and multiply oppressed or marginalized. So if you're first gen, and BIPOC, if you're first gen and disabled, and neurodivergent, and queer- you name it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I just want to say- I'm sure you know from your community, you're not alone. It's so frustrating that so many of us arrive in those moments of having those thoughts and feelings. And in that moment, you don't automatically think I'm not alone, or I'm one of many. Oftentimes, because there's so few of us in terms of representation, we feel like there's something wrong with us- which is so untrue. You were saying, though, that you arrived at a point where you had your mentor- can you say a little bit more about how she helped you with kind of managing those feelings of doubt?

Marisol Jimenez

Yes. She is a world renowned scholar in critical race theory. She's a Black feminist. I think I reached out to her once and I was like, I just don't feel like I'm prepared enough to move on to the next stage. It was the time for me to switch from my masters to my PhD. And she was like, what are you talking about? I've read your work and your work is amazing. She's like, you need to show up every day like you are that person. You need to apply to the jobs that maybe you're not prepared for, but you apply for them. Then you prepare yourself to become that woman. You need to always think about yourself that way.

Marisol Jimenez

You can't leave your name out of any hat. You need to put yourself at all of the tables. And I think for me, hearing it from her that she truly - she's read my work, she's talked with me- that she saw in me what I couldn't see in myself at the moment, it completely changed the way that I think about it. I think after that, even having self doubt in starting new projects- passion projects like Academic Amigas or other things- does doubt creep in? Yes. I think it's a normal reaction for all of us to feel uncomfortable when we start something new, something that we've never done before.

Marisol Jimenez

But I always tell myself- why can't it be me? Why is it impossible for me to be a professor or for me to be a great writer? The only thing that's between me and all of my goals is all of the work that I put in in the middle- all of the hours that I spend reading and preparing myself, all of the hours that I put into these projects. That is where my end goal is going to come from. I believe most of the time, even with the doubt, I think one of the things that I struggled with the most was rejection. So on top of your doubt- you already tell yourself, I'm not good enough. I shouldn't be here. Am I gonna make it? Am I gonna be a professor? Then you get a rejection, and this rejection just knocks you down.

Marisol Jimenez

You're like, they were right. I'm not good enough. I can't perform at the same level as my peers. But I think I've looked at rejection completely differently. I think I took all of them very personally in the past, and I learned not to take them personally. I think whatever journey is set for me now is already put in place, and whatever isn't for me, whatever opportunity, money, grant, fellowship is not for me, was never supposed to be for me. But I have an abundance mindset now, and I know that there is an abundance of opportunities. And just because one of them doesn't work out for me, it doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't going to be something better. All rejection is redirection.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. The other thing that- when you say that- that it reminds me of is the importance of developing a growth mindset. Because a lot of us develop the opposite of that, where we associate failure as an inability to be able to do something, and so we avoid failure at all costs. Whereas other folks may acknowledge that failure is part of the process. Then the more you fail, the more you learn and grow. That can help a lot, because especially in academia, there's a lot of rejection- like you said. I'm glad that you mentioned that. I'm glad that you mentioned the abundance mindset. I'm glad that you mentioned the different ways that you're seeing it to reframe these things that have made you feel doubt. I'm wondering- you mentioned the example of coursework, you mentioned the example of getting rejections. You mentioned the writing. In what other ways does uncertainty or doubt kick in for you? And what are some strategies or tips that are helping you with dealing with these feelings?

Marisol Jimenez

I think during coursework specifically- well, I guess I'll start at, as you know, I run an Instagram and I try to provide support and services for women of color to go to graduate school. And oftentimes I get asked, how do you know if graduate school is right for you? And honestly, I am 100%, supportive of all of us getting more education. But always with the understanding that- is it going to lead you to the career and the life that you want for yourself? Because graduate school will take all of your emotional energy. Your finances are going to struggle. There's so many parts of you that you feel like are on hold. I think those are real doubts that you need to take into consideration when you're considering what path you want to go down.

Marisol Jimenez

And I think during my coursework for me, I reached a point where I was like, should I even finish this degree? I want to focus on education policy. I can get an education policy job without a PhD. So why am I even getting one? Is this right for me? Do I want to go through another four years of emotional damage, of academic hazing, of financial instability? Is it worth it in the end for the life I envision for myself? I think that is healthy doubt. Those are questions that you should ask yourself, that you should consider, especially if you have to pay for your graduate program, right? Can we take alternate routes? I think that's real.

Marisol Jimenez

I think, for me, becoming comfortable even with those feelings of doubt, it's the same as becoming comfortable with the feelings of sadness and anger. Those feelings come up, and they're inevitable. So how can I honor those feelings? Like, I feel you. I understand you. I understand myself that I'm anxious about this new opportunity, or this new job, or this program. And also at the same time, I believe in myself and I believe in my capabilities. I want to support myself. I think some of the things that I've done to kind of build up that support system for myself has been my community.

Marisol Jimenez

I think especially recently- I just took my qualifying exams. It was two weeks of torture for me. I had been preparing for these exams for five months. And in those five months, I also took a month off. I traveled to Thailand, and everyone was like, you're making a mistake. You should be preparing. You're never gonna pass if you're taking all this time off. And I was like, I believe in myself. I think I can do it. If not now, then when? I think in those moments of doubt, one of the things I do is save all of my letters of recommendation that I've received over the years. When I am down in the dirt, I go back and I read the letters of recommendation. I'm like, they're writing about this person. And I'm like, who is that person? And it's me, but that's how people look at me and that's how people perceive me.

Marisol Jimenez

I am someone who gets things done, and I am able to be critical. I think reading those letters of recommendation gives me the confidence sometimes that I need when I'm really struggling. Or I reach out to a friend, like a friend who knows my abilities, and just hearing them talk about me or support me is so great. And honestly most of all, in between both of those, one thing that I've always done when I'm really struggling is call my mom. You don't know how many times I've called my mom at three in the morning when I've been working all night. I'm crying and I'm like, I just can't do this anymore. I don't think I'm gonna make it. She's like tu puedes hacer todo. You can do it. I think in between all of those, they've kept me afloat when I really struggle. I write affirmations for myself and I keep them in front of the mirror. For me, a combination of all of them are what have kept me going.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Those are really, really great tips. It's also funny, because someone I know who's an oral historian and speaker recently gave a workshop on impostor syndrome and how to combat it. And one of her tips or strategies was keep a file, a folder, with all of your letters of rec. And anytime you start to have those feelings creep up, go and reread them. Remind yourself that that's you and that you've got this. There's no reason for you to doubt yourself. You've done it before. You can do it again. You just reminded me of that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

My version of that is called a brag bank. I keep a folder with just all the positive notes. It's not just letters of rec. It's any nice emails. I'll put screenshots of DMS - direct messages- I get from folks and the impact that I've made in their lives. All of that reminds me of who I am, my purpose, my strengths, and it helps. I also want to touch on another part of fear and uncertainty, or doubt and uncertainty. I want to make sure that we do touch on this because it can happen and it does happen for folks in grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Sometimes people feel doubt and uncertainty because they actually want to leave the program. It can be scary for them to share that and disclose that, very vulnerable, with other people when they're having really serious concerns over whether or not they want to stay or leave. And probably their gut is telling them that they want to leave graduate school. I'm curious about your thoughts on that. I don't know if you yourself have had any peers, colleagues, friends, or folks who you've known who have left. I know I have during my time in graduate school, and even after in mentoring, advising, femtoring, and working with clients. I've known a fair share of folks who have either left their graduate programs, transferred to other programs, or left graduate school altogether to pursue different career paths.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I just want to validate anybody who may be having those thoughts, and let them know that it's okay if that's happening. But yeah, I'm curious about your take on it, because I feel like you have a pretty strong sense of conviction, of like- I know why I'm in grad school and I want to finish. And you've got your tool box of things to do to manage the doubt. But in the case of someone who maybe is not feeling as sure and leaning more towards- I don't think this is right for me, what would you say to them?

Marisol Jimenez

Yeah. I did recently have a friend who- we spent so many hours talking through, should I leave or should I stay? And I think I will say if this degree comes at the expense of your mental health, then 100% you should leave. I think there is nothing in the world, no amount of money, no amount of degrees, are worth your mental stability. And I think that some- academia can be so violent and harmful to people of color, to women of color, that sometimes we are forced to make the difficult decision of having to leave. Sometimes, you can be in such a toxic environment that no letters of recommendation, and no positive notes to yourself, and no calls from your mom can be enough for you to survive in a space that is just never going to be good for you.

Marisol Jimenez

Honestly, I also think that all of- me being able to have all this conviction and positivity is also because I predominantly- actually 100% in the last three years- have only worked with women of color. I have very good positive experiences as far as that. But for my peers who don't, I think we weighed out the pros and the cons. Like I said, there is no amount of yoga and meditation that can get you out of being in such a toxic place. And sometimes, either a)you're so burned out and you need to take a semester off to get your mind right, get your heart right, get your body right, just be in a better mental space to come back. And during that time, I think it allows you the time to have reflection on whether or not this is for you.

Marisol Jimenez

I recognize that academia is never going to save us. It's never going to love us back. So it's never going to be worth you going through depression or suffering a lot of mental health stuff for this degree that's never going to love you back. I think taking the time off is also really hard because you can have feelings of like- I failed, or other people haven't had to do this, but I do. But everyone else doesn't matter. The only person that matters is you and no one is going to judge you for taking time off. At the end of the day, the only person that you need to worry about making happy is yourself.

Marisol Jimenez

And I think for first gen students- like for my friend, for example- her parents are immigrants. They want to see her finish, of course. But I was like your parents didn't immigrate to this country for you to be a PhD student. They just wanted a better life for you. It doesn't matter what that life looks like. As long as you are happy, you are already living a better life. That just needs to be like a constant reminder. On the other side of that, if you need to leave because of yourself, I completely support it. I think the only time that I thought about leaving was because I had a very toxic professor who was very negative to me. I did really consider leaving, because he had told me the only reason you've made it this far- at that point, I was a second year PhD- is because people feel bad for you. They don't want to fail you because you're a woman of color.

Marisol Jimenez

And, man. I remember crying hysterically for days. I printed out the papers and went to go see my advisor. She was like, he's a fucking idiot. And I was like, oh my gosh. We dealt with the problem there and then. She was like, never let anyone tell you- because the truth is that people will always tell you that you're not good enough. It's up to you to believe in yourself- to try harder, to do more, to just surround yourself with people who like your work. Not everyone is gonna like your work at the end of the day, and that's fine. My work and the research and the critical work that I do is not everyone's cup of tea. That's okay with me, because I know that I'm making a difference with what I do. But I think as far as doubt and leaving, it is up to the person. If you've reached a place where you absolutely do not have anyone in your program who can support you and it is affecting you so much, then it's definitely time to take a break, leave. You can reapply elsewhere, but definitely taking care of yourself first.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

There's not a lot that I can add, because I feel like you provided really good advice and insight. But one thing in terms of what you said that I appreciate is that you didn't just go with a black and white answer. You allowed room for the gray. Instead of saying - hey, if you want to leave your program, you can. You said you know what? It's okay if you're having doubts. It's also okay to take a break. It's also okay to go on leave. And that it's okay to sit in that ray gray area while you decide. I am a big fan of that, of kind of allowing yourself to be in the gray for as long as you need to be, and to really see and think and figure out what it is that you want to do and make decisions out of your own life goals, out of your own intuition, out of what feels right for you and your life- and not what other people are projecting onto you or expecting of you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It's not because someone's saying you are terrible at this and don't belong here, or it's not because you're being made to feel like you are not meant to be there. It should ultimately come from you. I really liked that. And just like you, I'm a big fan of kind of affirming, validating supporting folks, if and when they decide to leave any spaces that no longer serve them. Because I've been that person too, and I've also been on the- in terms of being that person on the receiving end of folks saying no, don't leave. The guilt trip of like, you're gonna regret it or you're gonna miss out, or students are gonna miss out on blah blah blah because of you not doing X, or whatever it is. But really, at the end of the day, it should be what works best for you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I think what I'm taking away from this conversation about doubt and uncertainty is that a lot of times, it's sending us a message. Like something is up right now- why am I feeling this down? And it's getting to the root of that. In your case, it's like, I had this toxic professor who was unhelpful and said some things that were not only rude, but completely untrue, to the point where it's making you consider whether or not you want to stay in that program. You were able to push through, work with other mentors- now you've been surrounded by women of color mentors who have been supporting you. And now you have that sense of again- I sense that you have more confidence in who you are, what you're doing and in finishing your program. That's really great.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But it was that message of like, why am I feeling this way? It's not coming from me. It's coming from someone else. They're projecting things onto me. They're not true, and so I'm moving on. In anybody else's case- the last thing I want to say about this is- try to get to the root of what is it that your thoughts and feelings are trying to say to you? What's going on? What's bringing this up? And then work on the tools, strategies, support systems to help you overcome whatever those hurdles are. We're getting close to wrapping up Marisol, so I'm wondering if you have any other closing words on this topic of doubt, uncertainty that is so so common- not just in grad school, but I think in life.

Marisol Jimenez

Yeah. I think my therapist taught me this. When people spew out negative things at you, it's usually not about you. It's probably about them. I always remind myself that when people are being mean to me. Someone was probably mean to him when he was in grad school, and he's like, I want to continue being a hard professor and teaching them the hard way. Well, guess what? We're not going to keep doing that. We're not going to keep causing trauma on people. We're going to be helpful and supportive. I think for my ending message, I hope that I can leave you with at least a little bit of hope to always believe in yourself and your capabilities.

Marisol Jimenez

Doubt is always going to surround us. But I also think we have the ability to acknowledge our doubt, sit with our doubt, celebrate our doubt, and move past it. Like, I acknowledge you. I see you. But what if I just bet on myself? I consistently am betting on myself. If I don't bet on myself and my success, no one else is going to do it for me. I am a firm believer that everything in the world is constantly working in my favor. So it's okay. I believe in myself. If I try and I fail, then I celebrate the failure too. Then it gives me the ability to keep trying. I hope that if we can learn anything it's to make sure that you know that you're not alone. We've all felt it in so many different ways. We've felt doubt in so many different parts of our lives, and we have gotten past it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes, that is a great way to close today's episode. Before we go, for folks who want to stay in touch, follow you, follow your work, follow Academic Amigas- how can they reach you? How can they support you? How can they follow your work?

Marisol Jimenez

Well, I have a article coming out hopefully in the next three months. So you can look that up- under Marisol Jimenez. Also if you just want to join another community, me and Ana have Academic Amigas on Instagram and Tiktok. We hold weekly co working hours and different community spaces where other women of color can share our experiences, and just learn how to support each other and provide resources.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

We'll make sure to add those links to today's show notes so that everybody can follow. And if you have your article reference, I can add that so that folks can read it too. Thank you so much Marisol for coming on the show, for sharing your story, your knowledge, your experience with us. It's been really, really nice.

Marisol Jimenez

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me today.