178: On Grief and Loss During a Doctoral Program with Dr. Reka C. Barton

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Grad School Femtoring podcast. This is your host, Doctora Yvette. Today, we are covering a really important topic that I don't think we talk about enough when it comes to different transitions that we go through in graduate school. The topic of today is dealing with grief and loss in a doctoral program. We have a special guest. Her name is Dr. Reka C. Barton.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

She's a graduate of the Joint Doctoral Program with San Diego State University and Claremont Graduate University. She received her BA in psychology and Master of Teaching in elementary education from the University of Virginia, and served as an elementary school teacher for 10 years. She also has experience serving as a literacy leader and university supervisor. Reka recently began her role as a postdoctoral Faculty Fellow at the University of San Diego as she continues her work as a Black girlhood multimodal researcher who examines educational experiences through linguistic and equity perspectives. She is also the founder of the Scholarly Sewist, a modern lifestyle brand and social community that centers women of color in academia via fashion. And the other thing I should mention is that Reka is a returning guests on our show. She was here for episode 66. If you want to hear more about her and her work with the Scholarly Sewist, you can check out that episode. I'm so happy to have you back. Welcome back. Dr. Reka.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to be in conversation with you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yay, happy to have you back and now as a doctora.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yes, I made it to the other side.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. For folks who are new to the podcast or who are hearing about you and your work for the first time, can you tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do? And maybe a recap of what's been going on for you since we last chatted on the podcast- which was back, I was checking the records. It was June 2021 when we published your last episode. So a lot has happened since 2021. It has been at least a year and a half.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yes. I think the biggest thing that's happened in that time is I finished my PhD program. For all of you who are in it, it does end. One day it is actually over. So keep going. Stay the course- and remembering your why. I think there's so many pieces of that dissertation year and graduation that it truly is exhausting, and overwhelming, and amazing, and isolating all at the same time. So I think remembering to pause and celebrate. You defend, which is such an emotional and draining day. It's the combination of your work and the years of studying. And then there's kind of like mini celebrations along the way. So you defend, and then you start getting emails that actually say doctor. Then you still get to graduate. And then your degree comes in the mail. And then if you order copies of your dissertation.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

I charge everyone to own it. You did this work. You finished. You deserve to love on yourself. You deserve to celebrate. You deserve to sit in your accomplishments, especially as women of color. Do not move fast past that. Do not think- oh, I'm just like my cohort members and other people. They are not that many of us. So sit in that celebration. Then I think the other big part was the job hunt- which is daunting in itself for anyone who's finishing a dissertation while you're going to day long interviews, multiple faculty presentations. It's a lot. And I think from that I actually chose a postdoc. I would like more people to know that postdocs are really good options- not overlooking that when you are doing your own job hunt. Now I am happy, starting my second semester in my two year long postdoc at the University of San Diego. They're really just giving me these two years to teach some classes in their PhD and teacher credential program, as well as digging into my own research- pulling things out of my dissertation, thinking about what my next study is, having writing and research resources there for me. So I am really excited.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Well, I want to say congratulations. Felicidades. You're right- it is such a big deal. And I'm so glad that you're reminding folks to celebrate themselves, love on themselves, and that this is not just a thing that you can race through. You really got us spend some time- and I liked that you actually pinpointed the different parts where you're reminded of the accomplishment and of the celebration. Thank you for that reminder. So a lot has happened since June 2021. And today, we're actually covering a slightly different topic, but it definitely has impacted your journey and your trajectory- and probably also the way that you do your work, too. Can you start by sharing with us what prompted you to want to come today to discuss the topic of grief in a doctoral program?

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yes. While we can talk about all the other moments- the coursework, the writing, the rejections, the dissertation committee, the ups and downs, the struggle for women of color- I experienced all of those things, along with my celebrations. I never knew that part of my doctoral experience was going to be inclusive of losing my little brother to colon cancer in 2021. So I wanted to make sure that people know that they're not alone. I wanted to remind all of us to give ourselves way more grace, because real life happens when you're in a doc program. When we think about the longevity- people are in programs for four, five, six plus years. Real life is going to happen. And I knew that.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

I had seen women have babies, get married, move. One of my cohort members had to go through chemo for breast cancer. So I knew. I was very open to- things happen. But when it happens to you in such a personal way, it shifts everything. My timeline goes back to February 2020. I was actually in Switzerland. We did a research abroad program. While we were in Switzerland, COVID-19 was gearing up in Europe.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh wow.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

It was like we got there- if anyone is familiar with Switzerland culture, you do three kisses on the cheek, right, left, right. Or maybe the other way around. But in the 10 days we were there, we went from greetings of the cheek kisses to let's just touch our shoes together because COVID is here and our government has cracked down. So already having this fear of what is happening. I'm not home. Get to coming back March 13th- campus shut down. Now it's I just got back. Now life is changing. Now we're going home. Now we're all on lockdown. I moved to San Diego five years ago, so most of my San Diego life is school. I started my program shortly after moving, so my friends, my associates, my really meaning for being here is so related to school.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Then what happens when that is physically taken away from you? I'm isolated. We're in lockdown. I start doing the classes. April goes by. All the classes are online. And May comes around. and May is when my brother was diagnosed.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

For months he had been having issues, like something's not right. My brother is literally one of the smartest humans I've ever met and is always researching. Something's going on. Maybe it's IBS, maybe it's this. What am I doing? Was seeing specialists. But also, this is running up with COVID so it is harder to get in physical spaces. It's harder to get appointments with specialists, because if it's not deemed an emergency, some things were put to the backburner.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

It got to the point- I'm also 3000 miles away, so I'm not where my brother and my parents are. And my brother and I are super close. We're five years apart, but just have always been that person who gets each other more than anyone else in the world. My mom says- Greg is his name. Greg isn't feeling good. I was like, if he called you, it means it's big. Go to his house. And I'm feeling so helpless from so far away. And basically, my brother's birthday was May 8th. So on May 8th 2020, my parents went to go pick up my brother to take him to the doctor's. I'm just like, take him. I don't care if he wants to go. I don't care what you have to do. We need to figure out what's wrong.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

They take them to the doctor's on his birthday. They admit him, start running tests. He's in the hospital and by himself, because this is the beginning of COVID. So no one can be in there with him. They're not letting any guests. No one can even see him. He's in there for a week, and I remember taking a walk with my now fiance just to get some outside time. And my brother said, it's cancer. And I remember just crashing, just falling to the ground. Because it just seemed so unreal. For someone who was the healthiest person in our family- always ate well, didn't drink. There wasn't someone with the bill of health- and we all know that that means relatively nothing when it comes to cancer. But to be so thrown off. Then it was not just cancer. It was stage four colon cancer that had spread. And he was 29 years old. So all of this is just heart wrenching.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Also, I'd never experienced loss before. I'm coming from the place where the only people who I knew close to me who had passed were my grandparents. So to be in a space of never even seeing this. My mother didn't have close people who died. We were in a family space where young people hadn't passed in our family. So even the mental picture of what does this look like? What can happen? This could not be God's plan. None of it makes sense to me. So now I have to sit with this diagnosis. I'm in California. It's COVID. It's a lockdown, and I'm just now figuring out how do I get home because none of this matters. None of it matters right now. And my brother and I have always been close, have open dialogue. He was like- no, you don't have to come. No, you don't have to come- all of our conversations.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

And one time he was like- well, if you want to. That was my opening. I think it was May 25th. I literally put on a hazmat suit and goggles and a mask- a K95 mask. I got on the six hour plane and I went home. That was the beginning of being with him during his journey. Luckily, because it was COVID, I was able to take classes online. I was able to still do school from Virginia. And at that point, the doctors said that he had about six to eight weeks to live. And it was hard. I mean, there's been nothing else in my life that will ever compare. I don't even see the ability for anything else to compare even after. It changes you to the core.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

It changes how I show up in the world- what matters, what doesn't matter, my outlook, how precious time is. I think we all know these things, but the cruel reminder of it when someone so close to you passes. And it's so hard being a spiritual person who grew up in the Baptist Church, who has an intimate relationship with God. You start questioning in a way that I never had before because I need this to make sense. And as a researcher, someone who works with data, someone who wants truth- this is what I look for. I look for truth.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

None of this makes sense. None of this can be true. And the only way that I really put it together is our blessing was that we had nine more months. While the doctors said six to eight weeks, my brother lived for nine months after that and defied every science and data point and statistic. Now I realize the time was our blessing, because I needed every moment of that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Thank you for sharing. I'm very rarely at a loss for words, but everything that you said- I just I don't even know what to say. I just want to say that I heard you. I am glad that you were able to have the extra time that you did with your brother. I don't know how you managed to continue taking your classes during that time. I'm wondering, what was it like for you after? We were talking before the recording about how when you experience a very big loss of a loved one, it's a lifelong healing process. You don't just kind of fully get over it. It's just always going to be there. It's almost like unlocking a river. Like sometimes there are moments that can be triggering to that grief process. So I'm wondering, how did you navigate that period after he passed? You knew it was coming. You had a little more time than expected, but still, it's never enough time. What was that like for you, if you're comfortable sharing?

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yes. I think the first thing is therapy. No one should have to do this alone, so I definitely advocate for therapy and looking up resources. If you're employed by your university, there should be employee benefits or employee assistance programs that will give you some free sessions. But really, knowing that you have to take care of yourself to the best of your ability to even be there. I am so grateful for my parents. We've always been such a very close knit, immediate family unit. It was the four of us forever. And I started therapy when he got diagnosed, so I definitely think that helped.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

It was through those sessions, really talking about anticipatory grief. What you do with all this, how you still say present when your mind is in 14 million places at one time. I also feel that my brother and I were so connected through it all that there were no I wish I would haves. Throughout our whole life, we've been very comfortable talking about anything. I mean, we talked about death. And it's just a testament to who he- I always still say is. He's very much still here.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Although I understand it's not an earthly sense, but he's always with me. So I probably will go in and out of present and past tense. But we talked about death. We talked about his wishes. We talked about how he was feeling. So there were no moments that I didn't- I didn't feel that I didn't use the time with him well. What I always feel is that I didn't have enough time. The therapy really helped. Being at home helped. I was able- because of COVID- to be able to be in Virginia a lot. Sometimes I came back to San Diego- my lease was up at that point- trying to do different things. I'm also in what has been transitioned to a long distance relationship at this point. So there's so many pieces. I'm finishing up coursework to move into dissertation phase. So there was a lot.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

I think therapy was amazing. Being with my family was amazing. I had one friend whose mother had autoimmune- other issues. So we created a COVID bond, like we would test and we would see each other. But having that person- and it was just the two of us. We shut all our other friends out, because these early months where before vaccines, before anything. What I wasn't going to do was to ever feel that I was bringing anything back into the home and where my brother was. That was helpful, because you do need outlets. And to be pushed into a caregiver role- there wasn't anything that I wouldn't do for him. However, it takes a lot on both of you to prepare food, to be there, to see someone declining physically who you've known your whole entire life. Just day by day, it's overwhelming. So making sure- school did serve as an outlet to be able to get my mind off of something so hard and be able to pour it all into something else. I actually had six publications, three peer reviewed during my doc program. And that is not typical.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

You may not need to do what I did, but I do know that keeping my mind on something helped. And it just shows like who Greg and I are. My brother interviewed for a new position while he was at a treatment. So the nurses unhooked him, and my mom put his button up on so he could take this interview. He landed a six figure job while going through cancer treatment. So my why and my go finish was all him. I started this. He knew I was doing it. He was so proud of me. And I just remember him saying, wow. My sister's going to be a professor. So there was no option to not finish.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

There was no option to not see it through. But it was hard.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh my goodness. You said there was no option- I can imagine that you finishing is almost like in his memory, you know? That's why there was no other option. I- the only real experience I have of facing major loss was losing my dad at age 12. You saying that brought to mind a memory of- my father passed away and he was very physically fit. And I never liked working out. I never liked running. But I decided the year after he passed away, I'm gonna run the LA Marathon. With very little training, I just signed up and went. And no wasn't an option. With blisters, and I couldn't walk for days afterwards, but I got it done.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It's incredible the level of motivation and determination that you have when you're doing something on behalf of someone that marked and made such a big impact in your life. The other things that I heard you say were sharing some of the things that were or have been helpful to you, which include your therapy, your family support- strong family, your closeness- and also having a friend that you were able to lean on in a safe- what felt like a safe way at the time. Then also using your schooling and your work as an outlet for that. I'm curious -at the time, if you mentioned or disclosed what you were going through to the folks that you're working with, whether it was your advisor or anyone else that you kind of were involved in collaborations or any kind of dissertation work with?

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yes. I think that speaks to some of the relationships that had been built. My advisor knew exactly what was going on. And I will definitely credit San Diego State for the support. There was no question of me taking time off or what that meant for the courses that I was teaching. I took six weeks off. It was more than necessary. And the first week was literally the week my brother transitioned. Then the five where- what happens directly after is so like out of body. I remember just being jolted awake, wondering if he needed something or if I needed to be somewhere. And then the realizations. Like for the first thought every single day to be you having to remember that someone's gone. I don't wish it on my worst enemies. It is one of the hardest things to do.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

But I took those next five weeks off. And when I tell you, the way colleagues and cohort members were like, I got this class. Send me your syllabus. I'll teach two weeks. I'll grade these. I mean, the outpouring of support. And again, this is from my new home- the people in this space that I had have only been for a few years. So it felt very comforting to not feel like I had to stop- because I thought about that. The first instinct was I'll quit all of it. None of this matters. My family matters. But also that - what would Greg want me to do? What would actually build up and honor him? And it was finishing. So to be able to have that space and have people support me.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

And then some people you honestly feel like- they don't need to know. So I will be late on this email. I will turn in this document when I finally get around to it. But the way you reprioritize after a life altering event is really interesting. And I remember- some people don't know what to say. I think that was some of the biggest learnings in grief. A lot of people don't know what to say. And while you don't want to fault them, it's also what you need in the moment. Should it be suppress by trying to make someone else feel better about what they said wrong? It's a delicate - I definitely recommend, there's a book called it's okay not to be okay by Megan Devine.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

When I tell you it is one of the best reads ever. She experienced her fiance or husband in a traumatic accident and lost him instantly, and talks about grief from a very practical modern space. I really liked the book. And one thing it gave me was language for what I was experiencing. One thing that people like to do- and usually people who aren't that close to you- is add on their grief story. And in that beginning moment, I don't care. That sounds so bad, but what is on my load, my heart, my spirit, my mind- I'm trying to literally find reasons to get up in the morning. I don't have space for other people's grief right now. Maybe in a week or two. Maybe if I asked you about it. But right now, I don't have no space I can't hold anything else, because I don't even feel like I can hold this.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

So being mindful of the heaviness. And I don't think you know to do it unless you've experienced it, because there's a way to also talk about your grief. There's a time to bring in a loss. But the book gave me the language of out of order death. And giving that language- I was like, that's it When someone's 100 year old grandmother passes, I can't pretend that that's not a loss. I know that there is a loss there. There is a grief there. But there's also a space for the out of order. When you're 29 year old perfectly healthy brother passes from a cancer that people are telling people not even to test for until 45 or 50, it's a different space. It takes a different rationalizing and sitting with.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

So that was super helpful, to have the out of order grief. The book also said, grief will rearrange your address book, and that has always stayed with me. Some people who were your friends, who were close associates will not be after your grief. And not to say it's a bad thing. Friendships come and go. People rearrange. But when you are in this space, which you need- whether you know you need it or not- it's so particular. And not everybody has that capacity or maybe they don't have that capacity at that time. I'm not saying that you go and strike people out. But what naturally happens is the people who are giving you a little bit, you're going to keep coming to and nurturing those relationships.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

And the people who are making it feel heavy, or making it feel like you don't have an open space to talk, or by you sharing is bringing them down, it's gonna fade out. Because I'm a new person. Anyone who met me after my brother's passing, this is a different Reka. I am still trying to figure out if she's better or worse than before, because everything about me believes that the level of happiness that I could obtain and get to knowing that my brother was a part of my life, it doesn't exist anymore. And on one hand, that is so pessimistic. It's like, what am I living for if I can't ever get to this space of happiness.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

But therapy also taught me- it's okay to be okay. There are gonna be days that just being okay is good enough. I think it's also the way we use wording changed for me. People are like, are you feeling better? There is no better. Greg's not coming back. There's no better. Did I get up today? Did I shower today? Did I take a walk? Or did I stay in the bed? Is that what you're trying to ask? Because better doesn't seem to be a word that I can associate to my life.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Are you feeling better? I can't imagine asking that. Are you feeling better? No.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Better than what? What's with the bar?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. I was actually going to ask about what was helpful and what wasn't helpful necessarily throughout your grieving process and as you were finishing your doctoral program. But I feel like you really covered it. You went straight into what was helpful. And then also, acknowledging that a lot of folks don't know what to say. Or a lot of folks may distance themselves from you, because they don't want to be sitting in that that space of discomfort. Or maybe they center themselves and their grief when you mention something. It could be a number of things. It's just not a topic that a lot of people are willing to face openly, especially because then they implicate themselves and the finiteness of our own lives, and etc, etc.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Is there anything else that you wanted to highlight about what maybe was less helpful? Just so that those of us that may have close ones, loved ones who are dealing with their own grief, that way we kind of can be better loved ones, better friends, better family members, better community members. And if not, that's okay. If not, we can go into advice for folks who are in it, in the thick of that grieving process of their own.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yeah, I do think there's some tips for people who have someone close to them, because I think there should be space for us to learn how to be better. And I completely acknowledge that I probably did something on my own don't do list prior. Because until you've experienced it, you don't know what's helpful. One thing is saying their loved one's name. The feeling that even though Greg won't physically be in 2023, being able to say his name, hearing other people say his name, sharing memories is so helpful and so heartwarming.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

I think another thing is realizing that the way western societies, America, has really put this- like early grief, later grief, one day you leave this grief process- is a lie. This is a forever process. Sso expecting people to do it some way or not do it a way. I had someone say- oh, well. You're doing it pretty well. You look fine. Like, you see me for 30 minutes. You didn't know what it took to leave my house today. You didn't. So thinking before some of those conversations. Also the texts that are just like- hey, I'm thinking of you. I literally don't know what to say, but you were on my mind. That's fine. I may not want to say anything, either. But at least I know there's someone who is acknowledging that this is happening in my life right now.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Another thing is give people food. That sounds so basic, but I think it's so helpful. And honestly, pick the food for them. People who know- like, oh, we went to this restaurant and I know this person liked this. I never could have imagined that thinking of something to eat would be one of those things that I just can't do it today. I don't want to make any decisions. I don't want to leave my bed. If I have to cook something or even tell you what to get for me, I just rather lay here. So thinking of those little things that can be done. I had a friend who literally said, I don't even want to come in. I'm not going to make you talk. But there's a gift card and wine at your door. Thinking of ways that show that you are there, that you are mindful.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

But don't cause stressors. Don't take energy from the person, because that's literally what people aren't tapped out of it- especially in the beginning. And while it doesn't get easier, I get more used to it. I get used to that anything can trigger me today. I get used to that- I like the analogy of grief waves, because some of them are little waves, but some of them come and knock you over. And you never know when it's coming. I think that was one of my biggest fears. I'm going to be trying to defend my dissertation and I'm going to break down- because I have no clue when the waves gonna come. Luckily, it didn't happen. I almost had it, because I had a slide honoring Greg at the end and everyone starts tearing up. It's like guys- I got one more slide. Let me get through this one more slide. But it was really special to even have that.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

I think all of those are tips. And also, it's okay if you mess up. Just try and get better. None of us know how to do this. It's a very messy process. What your friend or loved one needs in month two may look very different from what they need a year from that. Check in when they have the energy. What is helpful? Can you list the three restaurants you like so I can bring this? Or would you like- can you tell me a story about them? Or even texting at weird hours, because the way your sleep is thrown off. Most people are either asleep all the time or up all the time. So knowing that there's space for you to come in- however it feels comfortable for you too.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That is really, really helpful. I especially like the part where you said that it's okay to mess up, so long as you keep trying. Because I think that folks can- you can usually tell when someone's making an effort versus when they're not, when they're being careless or insensitive. Now, I would love - if you have any words of advice for folks who are in the thick of it. And when I say in the thick of it, it's like they are experiencing a recent loss or they are struggling with grief. Because it could be something from a year, two years or much longer and we all experience grief very differently. Like you said, the waves are real and they hit you at any point. Just when you think -oh things are getting better. It can come back and hit you hard. And so many - I feel like grief is one of those topics that all of us have experienced that in some way, shape, or form just to different extents and severities. So I feel like this is words of advice for anyone, but especially for those who feel it a little bit stronger right now.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Definitely therapy. Get yourself into therapy. And also, really take a second to decide what is best for you- not the timeline that you had set up, what you think your parents or significant others need from you. What is your timeline? Because you can take a semester off. If you think that that is best for you in this time, in this place to sit in your grief in a way that could be very healing to you, then do that. There is no necessity that I have to finish what I started and I have to finish it in this timeline or space. I think being very open with those people who do need to know. Like, hey, I need to readjust this assignment. I need this extension - and giving as much or as little information and explanation that you feel comfortable with. Because it's your grief. It doesn't have to be - and it won't be shared in the same way with anyone. But I think the biggest thing is giving yourself grace. There is no right or wrong way to grieve. There's another quote. It said basically- your grief experience is just as unique as the love you had for that person.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's beautiful.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Right? Just the way we love and experience love, there's no way to duplicate the way you're going to grieve. And that was the other - grief is just an extension of the love. So if you loved your person, you're gonna grieve just as hard as you loved. And it is challenging. It changes. And just figuring out how you want to live with your grief - because it ain't going anywhere. So what do you need to set up? I think more practical things. My therapist was really good at like, did you drink water? Did your body see the sun?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Did you move today? So thinking about those little things. And just reading about- like I never knew that grief brain was a thing. But it was harder to read after. Then there's science and data on - that your cognitive skills are depleted and decreased in grief. I'm like, it never took me this long to read an article. But now, I'm like- how am I gonna finish? So some things had to be on Audible. Some things had to be in stages. And I had to give myself grace. This was not gonna go as fast or as smoothly as I thought it was before.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That the first time I hear about that, about grief brain. I'm glad that you mentioned it. I know it's not the same, but for those of us with chronic illness, we experience a lot of brain fog. And I know a lot of folks who have had COVID and things like that, they've also experienced that- kind of like the fogginess. I'm glad that you mentioned that- just even learning about different ways, modalities, or different forms of learning and doing your work can help you through that process if you're experiencing grief brain. All right, well, those quotes that you mentioned earlier really got me. And I feel like that's a beautiful way to end the episode. Can you remind us one more time the quote about how your grief is just as unique as...

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Your grief experience is going to be just as unique as your love for that person.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. That's gonna be the quote for today's episode. I want to thank you for coming on today, for honoring Greg's memory in talking about him and being so open and honest about your experience. For folks who feel like they resonated and they want to connect, or they want to follow, or they want to be in touch- is there a way for them to reach you?

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yes, please do. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and now TikTok as the scholarly sewist. And I mean, drop in the comments. Tell me your loved one's name. Let me know if you want me to reach out with any resources. I think also, we need to have more of these conversations. I was telling you that this is hard. This is the first time I think I've been this open. But this is also part of my healing to be able to share. And if this story helps one other person know that they're not alone in however they choose to maneuver, it's okay.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I'm so honored that you came today to talk about this. Like I said, it's a very important topic. But I was also nervous going into it because I'm like, it's a tough topic. And I'm also very sensitive and empathetic.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

You did amazingly. I felt that the space was here, and I again, always felt comfortable having conversation with you. So I thank you for understanding the importance and giving me a space to share because it really helped me today. The anniversary of Greg's death is February 26th, so we're about to hit two years. And really just talking to my mom, the outside world thinks that time heals all. We know that in this it doesn't. And for me, it's like this false narrative that you're more okay than you were. But when I tell you I can remember every single moment of our last moments together and the days right after. I wake up and have flashes of seeing him. It's nowhere near over. So I'm grateful for this space to share and keep moving through my grief journey.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I keep getting chills with you talking about it, and I really do think that he's here with you, that he's still here with you in spirit.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Before I start crying, I'm just gonna say thank you so much for coming on the show. I so, so appreciate you and yeah. I am so glad that you have had the time that you had with your brother Greg and that you shared such a strong bond and love together. And he's always gonna be with you in spirit because- like you said- we gotta say their names and we gotta keep remembering. That's how we honor them. Thank you.

Dr. Reka C. Barton

Thank you.