173: Post Master’s Program Transitions with Ariana Aparicio Aguilar and Patricia Ayala

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

Welcome back everyone to another episode of the Grad School Femtoring Podcast. This is your host, Doctora Yvette, and today I have an exciting episode on the topic of post master's program transitions. I have not one but two guests today, who will be sharing their distinct post master's program experiences with us.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Our guests are Ariana Aparicio Aguilar and Patricia Ayala. Ariana began her educational journey at Santa Rosa Junior College and transferred to Sonoma State University, where she obtained a bachelor's degree in sociology with distinction. She also holds a Master's Degree in Education with a focus on higher education from the Harvard Graduate School of Ed, and is currently pursuing a PhD in higher ed Administration and Policy at UC Riverside.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Patricia pursued her BA in Chicano and Latino studies with a minor in Spanish, and a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration at Sonoma State. She also obtained her Master of Arts in Education degree, with a focus on educational leadership and administration at CSU Fresno. During her college journey, Patricia has worked in a variety of educational support programs to help support students in transition going into college. She enjoys helping students find their major and learn more about grad school.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Welcome to the podcast, Ariana and Patricia. I'm happy to have you both here.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

Thank you so much. What a pleasure and honor to be a guest on your podcast. We're big fans.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I feel like vice versa, igualmente, because I'm a fan of Xicana code switchers. I'm a fan of what you all do and what you share, both on your podcast and on social media, so thank you for joining me today. We'll get started with asking you both to share a little bit more about who you are and what you do- and if you're comfortable, to share a little bit more about each of your backstory. We want to know- how did you both get to where you are today? We can get started with whoever feels comfortable diving in.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

I'll go first. I'm originally from Mexico City. I migrated to the US at the age of four. A the oldest of five siblings, I was always the one in my household who was tasked with figuring things out- just translating, and going to parent student conferences and being the interpreter, and making phone calls. I think being the oldest and also being an immigrant just outlined my experiences as a younger person, and also pushed me to do what I could with the education that I was provided here, with the opportunities that I was provided here in the US given that that's the reason my parents migrated to the US- to give me better opportunities at life, at an education, at a quality of life. So that's a little bit about my background.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

Then just having great friendships and collaborators and role models along the way, people who took an interest in me, who saw potential, who saw this hunger and desire to get ahead in life. Just having them guide me and show me the ropes. It was an entire community of people that I've met along the way and just took a chance at me and gave me an opportunity to to learn from them. And the rest is history, or herstory.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

And Patricia, I'd love to hear also from you. Then after, I am curious to learn more about how you both met. I would love to learn the Xicana Code Switchers origin story tambien.

Patricia Ayala

Hi. Thank you so much Yvette, for again, inviting us to the podcast. It's always a pleasure to connect with other folks who are also just sharing on different platforms, different information for a lot of our communities, especially for folks who are considering and going to grad school. My story starte- I mean, my family originated from Michoacan, Mexico. They moved when they married to Jalisco in Mexico, and that's where my older sister and I were born. Then I immigrated to California in the US when I was two. From there, we've been going back and forth to Mexico. Every holiday break, we would go back to visit family and spend some time there.

Patricia Ayala

My dad was a farm worker and moved up. Because the way that agriculture is structured in Napa Valley in the North Bay Area, he worked in the wine industry for most of his adult life, even when he first was younger. He was also going back and forth when he was a preteen, a teenager, young adult. My mom was a housewife. So a lot of the dynamic within having just three sisters is a little bit different than Ariana, who had a lot more siblings. But from the beginning, my parents had always envisioned us going to college.

Patricia Ayala

That was kind of interesting, now that I am in a position where I'm a senior advisor in a four year university, where I get to work with undergraduate students and get to see, hear so many of our stories of what are some of the challenges, what are some of the things that are been helpful. And I've never thought that- during the time that I was living it- how unique our experiences have been, and why we were such an outlier for the majority of our family groups or family dynamics of having all three of us go to college. My older sister had gone to UC Davis, so she was the first one who had stepped out and went straight to a four year. Some of my aunts had started at the community college. But for the most part, because we were such new immigrants, we didn't know a lot of the higher ed systems or what kind of options we had other than what was immediately available in our community, which is the community college.

Patricia Ayala

My older sister was able to go to a four year straight out because she had participated in upward bound and talent search when she was in K through 12. She got me to also participate in that program. That was a big help - having an older sister who had gone through some of the systems. However, I chose a different track. She went to nutritional science. I did business- and you know from my bio, Chicano/Latino studies, so I was a lot more social justice oriented. My younger sister went to UC Merced and studied public health. So all three of us kind of studied entirely different disciplines and fields.

Patricia Ayala

When I was in undergrad, I was very highly involved- and decided to, because of an encouragement of one of my professors, to participate in a program called McNair. If it weren't for McNair, and all these support programs that were available to students like myself, I don't think I would have dreamed as big or done as quickly all of these things, and had gotten to achieve my career goals. I might have ended up here, but it probably would have taken longer. I think that was what inspired me to pursue a career in higher education. I had never thought that higher ed was a career field. I had only been kind of thinking about doing a nonprofit just because, again, things that are closest to us are something that we kind of envision ourselves as our career or options that we have to pursue as majors or degrees. At that time, I had met Ariana. That's kind of part of our origin of our podcast. We met because I was an undergrad student at that time. I believe it was my junior and senior year, my last three years of college is when I met Ariana. Ariana was an undeclared advisor at Sonoma State at that time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, how interesting. You were an undergrad and Ariana was an advisor?

Patricia Ayala

Yes.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, wow.

Patricia Ayala

Yeah. And again, I went straight to Sonoma State- a four year. The same way as my sister, except I went to a CSU. I'm the only one who went to a CSU and went to pursue a master's, and even knew relatively what the whole PhD process was. I think that definitely changed my trajectory. And I was highly involved on campus. That's how I met Ariana, because we were both kind of organizing and doing a lot of coalition work, and helping get a undocumented student resource center on campus because that kind of resource or department had never existed at Sonoma, structurally or formally. Everything was just kind of informal, people kind of going out of their way to help undocumented students.

Patricia Ayala

Then Ariana also participated in other coalition work that we did on campus to make more social justice spaces, an also places for women of color to understand what the options are of grad school. So we created clubs, events, and all that stuff. That's how we met. And because I was in McNair, I would share it to Ariana that I was going to apply for summer internships and also grad school pretty soon. In my last year, both of us were like, we both want to do this. Most of my friends had graduated because they were transfer students, and they were older than me. So Ariana and I would meet periodically to apply for grad programs. That's how we both went to our master's programs after I graduated. And we connected because in one of my classes that I took, it just was an elective for my master's program, required that we do a podcast. I was like- Ariana, we have so many great stories from our friends...

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It was from a course?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

From a course.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh wow.

Patricia Ayala

One of my committee members from my master's thesis, she put this as an assignment. This is kind of have a project ended up starting. We've connected with so many folks, being able to- the goal was for us to create a podcast where people could come in from all sorts of walks of life to discuss what their options and their thought process was in their e both career and professional, and personal lives. So that can help other people envision themselves, of what would that career or option be if people were to pursue that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

If I'm hearing this correctly, you met. You were in undergrad. Ariana, you were working at the institution at Sonoma. Then you both stayed in touch. You both were interested in pursuing an advanced degree. And in your master's coursework, you were required to work on a podcast. You two were still in touch. and you started the podcast together, then? And it has been since then?

Patricia Ayala

Yes.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Patricia Ayala

When I was kind of putting together the idea or pitching the idea of what this podcast would be to my professor, I was like-well, I had to kind of think about who of my friends what I consistently want to do a podcast with? I'm like, Ariana is-she goes everywhere, does a lot of things. We just connected very well because we were just always involved on campus.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Patricia Ayala

and during our communities. Ariana had- again, both of us were sharing the same experience of isolation, and also kind of being in a whole new environment. Because when you are in grad school, you have majority of your brain - 90% of it is navigating. The 10% is kind of like your own personal life. So much of our time is spent in a grad program. And we wanted to just kind of document and have an archive of wanting to also honor all the people that had helped us get to the space. And also be able to connect with more people who are also experiencing this and finding ways of how we can do better in the field.

Patricia Ayala

How can we connect with experts or people that we find doing the work that we want to? It's so crucial to connect with folks because of how isolating it is. Not only do we have less people, less minoritized people pursuing grad school with our backgrounds, but even more, so there's less who are considering or thinking about the field in this social justice lens.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Patricia Ayala

When you're looking at all this, there's even less folks. So we knew that in order for us to sustain the work that we do, we do need to connect and collaborate- or even just for our own sanity, meet with people who would think like us.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Patricia Ayala

Because it can be very traumatizing going into a classroom where you have to always justify why people should have humanity and empathy towards people that are different than themselves.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I want to go back a little bit, because you were already in the master's program. But today, we're here to talk about post- master's program transitions. And I was hoping you both could share a little bit more about what it took to make the decision to pursue a master's degree. What was it that made you decide that? And also, I think that it's super interesting that you two have separate trajectories, because I would have thought that Ariana was the one in the McNair program because she's in a doctoral program right now. And not the other way around. Patricia, you went to McNair, but you didn't go on to get the doctorate program, which is the expectation in programs like McNair. So I want to hear from both of you. And maybe Ariana, if you want to get us started. How did you arrive at wanting to pursue a master's program? Then the PhD too, because that's also another program you've been working toward.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

So for context- and it's good that you pointed that out. When I was in undergrad in 2010, 2011 at Sonoma State, I wasn't eligible to be part of McNair's. I wasn't allowed to - even though I'm interested in grad school, or even though I was trying to figure out my next steps. It was during a time where undocumented people were not accepted. It's a federal run program.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

So I wasn't allowed. The one question that asked about citizenship, I didn't fulfill. So that was one of the examples that I always bring up to people of things that prevented me from participating- that and studying abroad. Things that I would have completely taken advantage of and enjoyed doing, I couldn't because of my legal status. Then basically, what prompted me to do a master's program was the fact that I had worked in higher ed for a few years at that time. DACA passing in 2012 allowed me to work for a nonprofit, allowed me to work at Sonoma State, allowed me to see basically what had goes on behind the scenes at a four year institution. My alma mater, going back as a working professional gave me that insight.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

And to be honest, I got burned out of working. Also Trump getting elected in 2016 or whatever, and just feeling like I was at a risk you know? When you think about it, students tend to be protected and looked looked at as like, oh we need to protect them. When it comes to protecting anyone at a institution of higher ed, it's the students.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

So I said, I'm gonna apply to- the goal was PhD programs at the time. But I ended up getting deferred to the master's program at Harvard, which is fine. But the end goal for me has always been to do a PhD. So even though it did take me after my master's program three more times to apply to get into the current program that I'm in, I was on a mission. I'm like, I need that PhD. And it's kind of on a survival mode or approach, because as an undocumented person, I need to think about ways that I can get ahead and be deemed worthy of staying in this country- and if not staying in this country, be more marketable if I decide to leave the US and go to another country.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

So for me, it's more like twofold. It's yes, I want to get ahead intellectually, and I do want this degree. This has been the ultimate goal to go as far as I can. I think it's the immigrant drive in me. And it's also like, okay. If nothing changes legally with my situation- I have to wait 20 years to even hear back from my mom's and my sister's petitions. I can't wait 20 years. I'm at a point where I'm done. I'm done. I'm going to get this degree and depending on where I'm at at that point, I have options. I'm no longer tied to this country. So that's me. And going back to being burnt out working, I wanted to invest in myself, like work for my self, do stuff that's gonna get me ahead, if that makes sense. So academically, it was a way to do that. But Pati's story is different.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing and for being so open and honest about the way that education can be an avenue through which you can focus on survival, focus on your safety, focusing on- what are the ways I can protect myself based off my status, my legal status? I think that a lot of people are gonna be able to relate to you and hearing your story. And also, it is incredibly frustrating that federally funded programs like McNair continue to only accept students who are US citizens and permanent residents. So I hear you. I- working for McNair, that was a huge, huge frustration of mine with noticing some really, really bright students who would be eligible if it weren't for that one exception. Thankfully, there are more institutions who are creating kind of like parallel programs that provide similar types of support. But it's still not enough, and it makes sense that you've gone on this pathway and this trajectory- both on that the side of needing to have more credentials and protect yourself. But then at the same time, having that work experience and realizing it's really easy to get burned out in higher ed. Now I'm curious from Patricia's end, because she's the one working now. Let's hear your take, too.

Patricia Ayala

Yes. I think it's really important too, what Ariana had mentioned- the time you're born and what kind of resources and stuff like that you have access to, how much it changes. I was born in 95. I'm like the youngest Millennials slash Gen Z or older. I'm like in the middle of the two generations. And my trajectory had changed, because when I was in high school, Upward bound had lost its funding in the area that I was in. So I started going to college where there was a lot of shifts and changes in how Higher Ed was admitting students.

Patricia Ayala

When I tried to apply for the UCs, kind of like how my older sister did, a lot of the UCs that I had applied to had changed their criteria where they were being a lot more picky and selective because there was a huge influx of more students applying to them than they had seats for. That's kind of the trend that I had seen from since I studied higher ed. Since the 60s, the bar had started going higher and higher for a lot of our students of color. Seeing how many of us are now starting to go to higher ed, the stakes moved up as a lot of people, especially privileged folks, started seeing that there's way too many competitions. They're trying to figure out strategic ways, either through academics or even professional careers, on how to change the bar.

Patricia Ayala

So by the time that I applied, a lot of things had changed. That's the reason why I went to a CSU instead of a UC. Another thing that changed when I was applying- and a lot of my mentors in McNair were surprised that a lot of folks who wanted to- I mean, because of my research interest, I was very in a niche and had very few people who were experts in the field. I had very few universities that I could apply to in those departments. And a lot of people were moving, so a lot of things were changing in terms of where people were at back in 2018, 2019. So by the time that I applied, the rules were changing, where they weren't really admitting as many folks that were going straight from undergrad to a PhD. So when I talked to one of my mentors, she's like, yeah, I couldn't even compete. The committee had gone through selecting more folks who had already professional experience in higher ed, and also who had already a master's.

Patricia Ayala

So she had recommended that I go back, get my masters and then pursue a PhD after that. A lot of again, the rules changed when I was applying. It's just again, the timing was off. And by the time that I graduated from my master's is when the pandemic started. In 2020, I had decided then because of the lack of structural help- and also I was done earning about 10 to 15k as a part time student, because you can't really earn that much or have enough time to have a full time job. I mean, some folks did it. But I think that was too much to do at the time, especially relocating to an area like Fresno. They don't have as many universities to work in. They have very few public universities that I would want to go to work. They only have CSU Fresno and also UC Merced. That's one of the two closest higher ed.

Patricia Ayala

That's why again, it's kind of like an academic desert, where there's not that many opportunities for folks to have choices- kind of like how they do, let's say, for an area that I grew up in, either the Bay Area. Or let's say, Southern California, where they have a lot more higher ed systems. So by the time that I graduated, my goal was to get some career, professional experience. Then I could decide whether or not even wanted to go to a PhD at the time. I was kind of questioning whether I wanted to do that.

Patricia Ayala

The pandemic started and then hiring freezes started. That's why I was so glad that I had applied to work for jobs six months before I graduated, because I was able to get in some applications and able to get a job. I just had a two week vacation once I graduated, and I started my full time job- my first full time job. From there on, my first year as a professional was to just gain experience and earn money. At that time, I got connected with a lot of folks who, in higher ed, were becoming expats in higher ed and transitioning outside.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I know we're not going to talk about that, but I kind of want to hear a little bit more about that.

Patricia Ayala

Yeah. That's why I recommend folks who are pursuing masters or even considering a PhD- maybe that Masters is a good first step for you to get your feet in and kind of figure out if this is something you want to pursue or still want to do, especially for folks who are first gen. I think I'm glad that I did my masters, because it gave me a first introduction of whether this world- and if I wanted to do this even longer term for a PhD. I also started looking at careers that I wanted to do if I were to transition out of higher ed.

Patricia Ayala

Again, I have a business background. So I always kind of figured I wanted to do something within Ed tech or tech in general, because I am in the Bay Area. Some of my former colleagues actually made that transition to tech. That's when I was looking at the job description, and all they ask is a bachelor's. Sometimes not even that, and you're earning six figure salaries. That's when I was like, I don't think it's worth- from the things that I want to pursue, my life goals. And also, my parents moved full time to Mexico. A lot of things had changed in my personal life. So I'm like, I wouldn't want to just move my family and go to somewhere else for PhD program. Because you also have to consider your partner, your family, what your stuff is. And I'm one of the oldest family members now with my siblings that has earned more. So I'm like, in case of anything, unfortunately, doing a PhD would destabilize everything. For now, I love not doing schoolwork- not being in school, and earning money, and kind of putting up some savings now because of how bad economy has been just since the pandemic had started. I think that really changed my trajectory.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

One thing I'm hearing from both of your stories in deciding to pursue a master's degree is that there's so much that goes into making this decision- not just so much happening with you personally, with your circumstances, with your obligations. But then so much going on with the changing landscape of higher ed that impacts your ability to pursue or not to pursue - or to pursue and then change your mind. I'm glad that both of you shared the reasons why you're in or you're kind of one leg - or one foot in, one foot out.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Since this is post- master's program, I want to hear about some of the challenges that have come up for both of you after the master's degree. Whether it's the challenges of being in a doctoral program at this time, in this day and age in 2023, or the challenges of being a working professional in 2023 with the recession, everything that's going on. Everybody's saying it's a looming recession. It's a recession. If you can tell us a little bit more about that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

And also, related to post-grad transitions and any kind of big life transitions, there's a grieving process. It's tough to go through life transitions, and that can also impact how we relate to ourselves, how we relate to others. It impacts our relationships. So whatever you're comfortable sharing about some of the challenges you may have or are currently experiencing post-master's programs, because a lot of folks that listen to this podcast are interested in grad school or are already in grad school and are going to make that transition at some point. It's just good to share kind of what may be coming.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

Yeah for me, for context, I'm not married. I don't have any children. I am the oldest of a family- to Pati's point. But I'm not responsible- my parents are not relying on me financially to support them yet. I think I'm pretty lucky in that way, that I don't have that additional stressor within my Ph. D. program. For me, the pandemic actually helped me get into a Ph.D. program, because they got rid of the GRE tests at that point. And it gave me time. I was actually in between accepting a job and also applying for PhD programs. But then, there was a hiring freeze. Then I was unemployed for that duration- I think like eight months during the pandemic.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

So I put all my energy on PhD applications - and also considered other universities, like UC Riverside. I never thought of UC Riverside before that year. I thought of the bigger schools. But it's been a blessing in disguise, because it's a very diverse campus- not to put in my two cents for the school. But it is very cultural. It is very diverse. We're like a minority serving institution. Name all the minorities, and we're serving them. I think one of the challenges that I faced was partly having to be remote, like online classes for the first year of my PhD program, which I thought I wasn't going to enjoy. But I did. I liked having that flexibility of being anywhere and connecting to my class.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

I didn't like- well, I missed the social part of a PhD experience- socializing with folks, building community. And then, I would say, the recent UC strike that we experienced also altered my second year, first quarter of my PhD program- disrupting it. For six, I think it was for half of the quarter- classes got canceled, got moved online. I missed out on good learning. I technically taught myself. Yeah, those were the things that I experienced, that were challenging, that I wasn't expecting as a full time PhD student. But I think just to conclude, timing is everything for me. I don't see myself doing anything else right now.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

I like my program enough, and I -per usual- navigating the spaces, I find the people that are caring, the people that are supportive, the people that are willing to listen to me. I've already kind of made some segue in people knowing who I am. And that's important, because when opportunities come up, they think of me. They know what I'm about. They know that I support undocumented students, that my research is on undocumented grad students, that I'm your person, your student, if you need someone to represent the campus or to go to the White House. I can do that for you all. So yeah, I think it's just -like my dad always said- you make the school. The school doesn't make you. I think I definitely can see that being applied at UC Riverside, a school that's not as well known, but has been providing me with great opportunities.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, relationships and support systems are everything. I'm glad that you mentioned the upside too, to your program and your experience thus far. What about you, Patricia? Challenges, and maybe some of the other positives too.

Patricia Ayala

For sure. I think, again, that year was just a unique way to end my master's- with a pandemic. I think there was a lot of grief of not being able to celebrate, because I was so looking forward to this big achievement and milestone within our family, and especially for me. Because I'm like, I went into my undergrad thinking that that was for my parents. But in the end, because of a mentor- she's like, no, you're doing this for you. This is for you- and start kind of owning up to this journey, of like, what do you want to do? As opposed to thinking always- what do others want for me to do?

Patricia Ayala

I think that's a trap that we get into, especially for folks who, for the longest time, get conditioned to feel that all of these successes have to be for someone else or you have to perform for others. I think this was kind of liberating for me to be like- this is for me. And my masters, for sure, was a journey that I decided. I got support from folks, and I finished it for my own professional development, because this is what I wanted to do. So once I graduated, there was no ending. It was not as exciting. I went straight into remote work. And that transition was a lot easier, because I didn't need to go in person as much as a professional. I got to do the zoom and all that stuff. So it was nice to just kind of decompress that last year, of seeing your identity outside of being a student.

Patricia Ayala

Transitioning as a first gen now professional was a lot different now, because, you have to kind of consider your thought process as a whole. You spend so long looking at that graduation, that afterwards - not a lot of people discuss what that post graduation life is going to be. If you've been an academic for a long time, or doing research and stuff like that, it was kind of strange to be like- oh, I have free time? I have choices on what I can do? I can do fun things. I don't have to always be productive. I think that was a challenge, from going everyday- especially my last year, and especially that last semester- just working on that thesis. You live, breathe, eat, sleep, dream that big research project. Especially for a PhD program that's even more. It encompasses so much more of your time.

Patricia Ayala

That afterwards, I'm like, okay, let me take up on Hobbies, figure out what I want to do professionally. I took my time to just kind of decompress. And now, within now my second to third year - now going on to my third year as a working professional. I mean, I got a promotion. So it was a different role, new possibilities. That's why I started thinking about what kind of leadership role and responsibility do I want? How do I want to move up? Your thinking process is a lot different. But it did take a bit of a challenge, thinking about- I'm so goal oriented. I was so used to doing the checklist stuff.

Patricia Ayala

Now I'm like, there is no checklist. This is everything you build on your own and kind of figure it out. You now don't have the same support system or a cohort or anything to be like, hey, we're going to support each other. Now everybody has to intentionally make time to sit down and get mentored- or you reaching out to something else. Because I was now thinking about transitioning outside of higher ed, it was super overwhelming to be like- well, my whole life goal and the reason why I went to pursue a master's was to do this. Since then, we've met with a lot of people on our podcast to also discuss what life is outside of higher ed.

Patricia Ayala

What life is when you transition to a whole entirely different career. How you address these conversations with family when again, if your first gen, for the most part family doesn't understand what you went through, and then now you have to talk to them about a career transition. For me, it's like now the next milestone is like earn more money. What do I do with that money? How do I learn about financial literacy and what options do I want to have? That's the thing that sucks, is that now that I graduated and went to this job market, it's super trash. Now, this coming 2023 year, so many people being laid off, and people now who are new graduates having to think about the job market that we have now. And for those who are having a job, really being careful about what are the career transitions- if you're changing jobs, or even titles, or moving up- always kind of having a game plan.

Patricia Ayala

So I think this time has taught me- my whole academic trajectory had never gone to plan. I've always had to pivot and change the direction, and kind of -again, do the same thing I did in undergrad. Know who I need to connect with, know what kind of support systems are out there, really reach out to the online community- because sometimes, the community doesn't exist in the spaces geographically where you're living in. So I've connected with a lot more folks on LinkedIn to kind of think about what life is outside of higher ed. Because, believe it or not, there is life outside of higher ed. You don't always have to kind of stick or feel stuck in an industry and have to do the thing that you did in your degrees either.

Patricia Ayala

The world could open up. It's just a matter of how hard do you want this. And also, if you do have challenges, how are you going to address them? So I think graduating has led me to really discover myself more, and have those tough conversations with family- and discuss mental health and generational trauma, and really discuss the hard stuff with my family and talk about what boundaries are needed. It's a lot of rediscovering yourself after postgrad. And I spent most of this time -again, forcefully because of the pandemic- to really reflect on what I want. I think that's where a lot of us don't get that out- like when you exit counseling and programs that help you really see life outside of whatever everyone's kind of pushing you towards.

Patricia Ayala

That's kind of the philosophy that I now kind of put into students, to think about- really look at your alt options, and really start thinking about doing this yourself. No matter if it's going to be different than what your family expects you to. That's actually pretty normal, that a lot of folks now are having conflict within parents and family and sibling dynamics. And I'm really happy that TikTok exists, where a lot of folks are talking about what that dynamic looks like in a healthier way, where we feel more empowered- especially for women and non binary folks, to be more of their authentic selves and not have to perform in every aspect of your life.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Thank you for the reminder that there's life outside of your current institution. There's life outside of higher ed. There's even life outside of the country. Depending on our circumstances and our situations, it's good to explore our options. And there are folks out there willing to help you out in whatever transitions you're navigating. I want to be mindful of the time, so we're gonna get close to wrapping up. I want to ask both of you if you have any closing words or words of advice for any students who are interested in pursuing a master's degree and who are curious about life after, after their degrees. Any closing words you're willing to share? Then after that, if you can tell us a little bit more about how we can find you, follow you, connect with you.

Ariana Aparicio Aguilar

For me, it's follow your intuition and don't get discouraged by obstacles or challenges. Sometimes, you're just getting rerouted to where you're meant to be or the place you're supposed to be at. Like I said earlier, timing is everything. Sometimes when we're in the middle of everything- let's say application season or waiting to hear back. We don't see beyond just that. But maybe something greater is coming and we don't see it. So just be flexible, adaptable. Don't get discouraged, and keep up the good work. Don't give up.

Patricia Ayala

Yeah, following the same line, sometimes, you'll have days where you have questions. You feel lost or overwhelmed, not know what your next steps are. And other days you'll get answers- the support that you wanted, the resources, the people that are willing, there to help you. That's just kind of the how life is. When I first went to my first round of interviews, I was dreading the idea of having to apply again for another position. So I think it's just kind of getting comfortable with interviews, getting comfortable with not knowing, getting comfortable with the stage of like- if these don't go work out,that position or what you thought of, or that program wasn't what you initially thought of.

Patricia Ayala

It's okay to do the things that people don't assume that you're going to do. Again, kind of like how Yvette mentioned, everybody's like why - don't fall into the stereotype I think. It's like feeling the need to uphold this idea of who you are based off what other people perceive of you. So if you did go to McNair, for example, it's okay not to pursue a PhD. That is not a failure. You don't have to hit certain markers, if again, it doesn't feel right for you. Like Ariana, follow your intuition. Think about what works best for you, because ultimately, you're the one having to show up.

Patricia Ayala

I just think that folks need to think about life. It's not just your personal life, your specific identity, or other. You're always able to reflect, reevaluate, and start with a clean new slate. And there's folks out there that can help you. The thing that students do is they kind of have this tunnel vision of like, I need to do this. You can pursue so many different things. Again, it's going to be tougher now, with the time. I think if you're getting a lot of rejections or things are not working out, just know that structurally, everything's kind of collapsing. Because of just the socio economic environment that we're in, a lot of things are changing and a lot of people are being laid off. It has nothing to personally do with you. It has everything to do with how the structure is set up.

Patricia Ayala

If the program is not accepting you- now I see, kind of like, I'm so glad that they didn't accept me in my PhD program. Because imagine me having to start a PhD program - start it, and then go to a pandemic. That would have been devastating. Then also looking at the job market, it made me reflect on seeing what kind of industry I wanted, and see what kind of options there were. And seeing like, yeah, this is very unsustainable for the kind of lifestyle that I want. So really looking at job posts is my number one advice for anybody kind of wanting to pursue a PhD or a master's, to see whether even your career or anything even needs that. Because sometimes you are going to have a detriment if you are too niched, or too broad, or the degree that you want doesn't pursue that.

Patricia Ayala

Always kind of reflect on the whole plan. Make sure that you are informed and you make an informed decision about your career and your academics, because both of them are two different things. You pursuing the degree has different requirements than that job or industry that you're trying to pursue. And keep up to date with the industry. There's always new changes. The more you informed you are, the more connected you are, I think the best way that you can pivot if shit hits the fan. You're always going to be knowing what your next step is because you have a community that can help guide you to know what that looks like, and support you through that process.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Thank you. For folks who have resonated with everything that you both shared, how can they reach you? Are there any places on social that they can connect?

Patricia Ayala

Yeah, so definitely connect and listen to our podcasts. So it's Xicana with an X- Xicana Code Switchers. You can find us on Instagram. It's XicanaCodeSwitchers together. We're also on Twitter- @XCodeSwitchers. Definitely searches us up. Listen to our podcast. And if you want to ever connect, learn more about our story, or need help with anything that we want to have a discussion about, you can always reach us at XicanaCodeSwitchers@gmail.com.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Thank you so much. I'll ake sure to add that to our show notes. And I just want to say thank you, thank you so much to both of you, for being so open, so honest about your experiences, about everything you've learned in your journey. Very, very different trajectories, but also, I'm sure, very relatable to our listeners. I appreciate you so much. Muchas gracias. It's been really great to hear from both of you.

Patricia Ayala

It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for giving us our time to now be on the other side of the mic, being interviewed.