163: What You Need to Know About Law School with Sydnee Mack

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Welcome back, everyone, to the Grad School Femtoring podcast. This is your host Dra. Yvette. Today I have an episode that's a little different from my former episodes. Today we're going to be talking about law school and everything you need to know if you're considering a career in law. I know this comes up sometimes for folks. You're not sure. And I'm really excited because we have a special guest. Her name is Sydnee Mack.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Sydnee is an experienced sports media and entertainment attorney, law professor and podcast host of the Sugar Free podcast, with a heart for service and a flair for the dramatic. She helps to change- no, no, no. She is changing the world through artful storytelling, impeccable communication, and real honest conversations. Welcome to the podcast, Sydnee.

Sydnee Mack

Thank you. I'm really excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Of course, of course. I'm delighted that you were able to come on the show today to talk to us all about your experience, and also your knowledge and your wisdom all about law school and law careers. So tell us a little bit more about who you are and what you do. For folks who may not be aware, we'd love to get to know a little bit more about your backstory too.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah. As you mentioned, I'm an attorney. I practice- I would say historically- primarily in sports and entertainment. But the way that the world is changing, I find myself getting more and more into media and tech, in addition to traditional sports and entertainment. But I actually came to law school because I wanted to be an agent. I feel like a lot of people who are interested in sports and entertainment, they think that they're going to go the agency route. And I was a division one athlete in college. But outside of that, I also grew up singing, dancing, acting. My initial goal was to be the sixth member of Danity Kane.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh my gosh. I love that.

Sydnee Mack

Before I decided I was going to be a lawyer, I wanted to sing. I wanted to dance. I wanted to act. That's what I wanted to do. And yall know, we had Diddy Making the Band. Funnily enough, I was of age when the first round of auditions came about. I didn't do it. Then I saw- a couple of years ago- that Diddy had a new Making the Band audition. They were trying to bring it back pre-COVID.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

What? I missed that.

Sydnee Mack

My sister was like, now it's your shot. You can audition. And I was like, do they really want a thirty something woman in the group now? Like, is it too late? Because I mean, I feel like I look good for a thirty something woman, but I don't look good for a eighteen year old, you know? In the group, they're really young. I'm like, I don't know if I look that good. I don't want to look like the old fat lady in the back. So I didn't an audition. Long story short, I didn't audition.

Sydnee Mack

But that was kind of like my plan in life. And I used to sing at state fairs, old folks' homes, malls, typical behind the scenes, behind the music. I had my mom keep all my old tapes for when I get big one day.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Aw.

Sydnee Mack

So that was my goal. I feel like when you are a creative person or you're an athlete, you kind of- unless you are Serena Williams level talented, there's always some doubt about whether or not you're gonna make it. So I feel like people encourage you to pursue your dreams, but then they also encourage you to have a backup plan.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

I understand the rationale behind having a backup plan, because the reality is that most people aren't going to make it big. But for those small number of people who actually might have the talent, you might actually be getting in the way of them being all that they can be. Because you can focus too much on your backup plan that you don't put enough emphasis or energy into plan A. So I started putting more emphasis and energy into my backup plan.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I see. So was the agent thing the backup plan or was that the main plan?

Sydnee Mack

That was the backup plan.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, that was the backup.

Sydnee Mack

That was the backup plan. The main plan was to really be the sixth member of Danity Kane. I wanted to be the talent. But since I was like- I don't know if I'll be able to make it as the talent, either as an athlete or a performer. I was like, what can I do to still be in the industry and be a part of the scene, be a part of the talent's community without actually having to be the talent? So being an agent was my backup plan.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I see. Oh, wow. I'm just thinking about that in relation- because I have a theater background. And when I realized, I don't know if I'm going to be able to act for the rest of my life, I considered the directing and stage managing route as that backup plan. Then after that, the backup of the backup was becoming a theater professor. Now I'm doing none of the backup plans. But thank you for shedding light on that, because it just shows you how your career can go on so many different kind of tracks. Because you started with this career in entertainment, and then becoming an agent. Then at what point did you realize- I want to become a lawyer, an attorney?

Sydnee Mack

So I went to law school still with the plan of being an agent. The primary role of an agent is to seek out deals for their clients, but then to also negotiate those deals and contracts. It's not a requirement that you be an attorney to be an agent, but a lot of agents are attorneys, especially the top ones. So I went to law school still with the desire to be an agent. I just wanted to have the certification because I really didn't know anything about contracts. Nobody in my family was in the entertainment business or industry when I was growing up. My siblings are now in the industry, but when I was younger, it's not like I had family that I could say- hey, could you help me figure out how to navigate negotiating contracts?

Sydnee Mack

I feel like for a lot of us, us being women of color who are the first in our families or the first to do something in our families, we have to - or we feel like we have to- take on the burden of going to school to get the education because we feel like that is the best way for us to get the knowledge and information. Versus - let's say I had a family member or a close friend or family member or a network that could support me being an agent without going to school. Maybe I could have shadowed. Maybe I could have apprenticed someone in the field, or a family member could have made a connection that maybe would have made school less important.

Sydnee Mack

But since I didn't have that, I went ahead and went to law school to pursue the agency route. Then I developed- like you mentioned - a backup for my backup. One of my mentors- who's a very successful sports attorney. He works on the team side. He was like, there's not a lot of money in being an agent unless you represent the top athletes. He was like, if you're not going to be representing the Lebron James of the world, you need to go on the team side. So he kind of encouraged me to push that route. That's when I was like, okay, I guess I'll go on the team side. I'll go on the corporate side versus representing the athlete. That's how I kind of got started on that path.

Sydnee Mack

When I came out of law school, we were still in the throes of the economic downturn - the previous one. Not the pending, maybe going to happen, not sure what's going on one we have right now. The actual one that was lingering from 2007, 2008.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

That was during a time when law firms were rescinding job offers. That was a time when law firms weren't hiring. I actually had an opportunity to go to a top twenty law school. I went to a very prestigious law school. Even the top people in my class were not getting jobs- or not getting paying jobs.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Sydnee Mack

Also, during that time - I feel like a lot of people don't know this- but a lot of the top law schools, in order to ensure that their graduates had employment post- graduation, were sponsoring unpaid employment opportunities for up to three years.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

What does that mean? That means you get a job, but you're not getting paid? Or they were paying on behalf of the folks who were sponsoring? I mean, they were the sponsors on behalf of the folks providing the jobs.

Sydnee Mack

Boom. So if you, let's say, could find a public sector, unpaid job as a court clerk or a public defender or something like that- because even public defenders and DAs offices were rescinding job offers at that time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

They weren't employing people. A friend told me just the other day that someone in her class had their offer at the DA's office- this is public servitude for five years. Their job offer from the DA's office was pushed out for five years. They told them, report back in five years. And they did, and they honored that. But it was like, that's how bad it was of a recession in the legal market.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

So it was basically like, if you found a job somewhere- they were willing to train you. They called it an apprentice program. If you found somewhere that they were willing to train you, but they weren't willing to pay you, we will pay your salary for up to three years. That's how bad it was at that particular time. So even though my goal was to be on the team side, there were no jobs available. There were no jobs available, so I actually started my career in the DA's office. Then I was a state court clerk for a state court judge.

Sydnee Mack

After that, I ended up starting my own firm, because it turns out I'm not a good state court clerk. Who knew? It's not really my ministry. It wasn't working out. I don't think that I was doing my best, and they probably weren't feeling me either. So I ended up getting fired. And I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. Trying to find a job is difficult.

Sydnee Mack

One of my friends was like, you should just open up your own law firm. And I was like, that seems super scary - in general, but definitely right now. But I really didn't have anything else going on, and I didn't want there to be a gap in my resume. So I started my own law firm, and I made it a sports and entertainment law firm.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Sydnee Mack

I was like, if I'm gonna just be out here, I may as well do what I want to do. So that's what I did. And because of the connections and the relationships that I had from dancing, singing, acting my whole life, from being a division one athlete, I actually was able to get clients from day one in that vein. Some of my first clients were athletes, were entertainers, people that I knew in sports companies. It went way better than I thought, but I still didn't enjoy it just because- and you probably know this having your own business. But running a business is hard.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

It wasn't a dream that I had. It wasn't a plan that I had. It's not like every day growing up, I was like, I'm gonna be an entrepreneur. I'm gonna run my own business. That wasn't really what I wanted to do. It afforded me an opportunity to get my feet wet in an area of the law that I wanted to be in, but as soon as I kind of had an opportunity to go in house, I did. So after that, I landed my first in house role at a large sports media and entertainment company. That kind of launched my career in sports, arts and entertainment. But before that, while I still had my own firm, I also started teaching sports law at law school. And the rest, I guess, is just kind of history.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow. I love how everything kind of just- when you say it, when you tell the story of how things go, it's feels like things just fell into place. I'm sure living it did not feel that way.

Sydnee Mack

Nope.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But it's just interesting how one thing led to the other, and here you are now. For folks who are listening to you, and they are still in the very, very early stages. We've got some folks who are in college right now, who listened to the episode. They might be considering law school. They want to know a little bit more about it. So can you give us a little bit of the 101 about- what is law school? And what types of careers does it prepare you for? Because I had no idea that a good number of agents are attorneys and have law degrees. You're teaching me something too. If you could share a little bit more about what is law school and the wide range of of careers that might be available with with that degree.

Sydnee Mack

For that particular question, what specifically do you want to know? Do you want to know what classes you have to take? Or the process for getting in? Is there something specific you want to know?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. So who should be considering like going to law school?

Sydnee Mack

Gotcha.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Then the actual law school process- what does it look like? I know that it's three years. What happens in those three years?

Sydnee Mack

Okay. I mean, who should be considering law school is a really difficult question to answer. I think that as a practitioner and as a professor, I get that question often. But it's difficult for me to answer, because I'm not the one that's going to have to take on the responsibility of going to law school or the debt potentially- and even if you have the cash- the investment, the financial investment, required to go to law school. So it's difficult for me to answer.

Sydnee Mack

I know that there's a lot of attorneys out there who tell people - don't go to law school. It's awful. You can't make a living from it. Then there are some people out there who absolutely love the law and can't imagine themselves doing something else. So I'll say this about that. If you feel like going to law school is something that you need to do, then you should go for it. I think that there are plenty of people who go to law school for all the wrong reasons. But it was an itch they felt like they needed to scratch. I'm team don't go to your grave with regrets. I personally would rather - some people would rather take on the debt, say they've done it- because it was a personal goal or accomplishment that they had- than not going. Doing what they felt like was the fiscally prudent thing to do by not going and then in the back of their mind, they're like, I always wanted to be a lawyer, right? I don't know how many people always come to- I always wanted to be a lawyer. I always thought I wanted to be a lawyer.

Sydnee Mack

So I feel like that particular question is a very individual and subjective inquiry that is difficult for me to answer. I think that who should go to law school in terms of it making the most financial sense, the people who need a law degree in order to do the job that they want to do. But I think the legal profession is changing a lot. That is a little bit nuanced as well at this point too. I'll give you an example. Because of technology and automation, your every day neighborhood lawyer used to be the go to person, let's say, for filing or establishing a business entity- because that information wasn't readily accessible- for filing a trademark application, filing a copyright application, drafting a will.

Sydnee Mack

But now we have so many do it yourself forms. Everybody- including the state court clerk's office- has a website. So a lot of the things that used to be reserved for your average everyday neighborhood lawyer, many people are doing on their own. In terms of what you need a law degree to do- that is not as clear anymore. I think that the one thing that you absolutely need a law degree for is litigating. If you want to be a litigator and you want to be in the courtroom, then you absolutely need a law degree. But I mean, we just had a president of the United States who didn't have a law degree. And he's not the first or only too- George Bush, George W, didn't have a law degree. I think he had a Harvard MBA. But these things that are so entrenched in our government- we think our politicians have law degrees. Many of them don't. You know what I mean? There are judges out there without law degrees.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

What?

Sydnee Mack

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Again, that's news to me. Wow.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah, I mean, it's a preferred qualification, but it's not a strict requirement. So I think it requires some research to determine what you want to do and what those requirements are. But depending on who you are and who you know, the requirements can be flexible- or the preferred qualifications.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

The requirements are not flexible, but the preferred qualifications can be flexible. At this point in time, I feel like if you want to be a litigator, yes. Even in house, many of the business people that I work with these days are incredibly sophisticated and know their way around a contract very well. I'm not going to say that the necessity of a corporate lawyer isn't still there. But if you just want to negotiate contracts or if you want to be a negotiator, you don't have to be an attorney to do that on behalf of a corporation.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

For most of the deals that I negotiate, I'm working hand in hand with non lawyers for every step of the deal. So you really just need to think about what it is you want to do, and how important it is to you. If you just want to hang a very expensive piece of paper on your wall, cool. Go for it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I mean, I know I usually offer very similar advice when it comes to graduate school. I say don't go unless it is absolutely necessary for the career that you're interested in. Or if you know you will regret it, because it's something you've just always wanted to do. But also consider the numbers and consider the debt. Consider how that's going to make an impact on your life goals that you want to achieve.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You mentioned that- I think a lot of us know that law school is expensive. But I'm curious if there are any ways to reduce that like scholarships. I know everybody's financial background is different. But in my case- the folks that are listening are predominantly low income, working class folks. That's the background. So are there scholarships? Are their fellowships? Anything that they can get to minimize that load?

Sydnee Mack

I'm going to answer that question in two parts, because I feel like I didn't fully answer your first question yet.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Okay.

Sydnee Mack

I'm going to try to weave in some more of that too.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Sydnee Mack

To start from the process for entering into law school. Like many other graduate programs, there are law schools out there that are rethinking their standardized testing requirements. Typically, to get into law school, you have to take an exam called the LSAT, which is the law school admissions test. You have to generally have a personal statement. You have to submit your undergraduate transcripts. You have to have a couple of letters of recommendation. And then there may be a diversity addenda or something that some schools will allow you to attach. But generally, it's like a standard application package and process that I will say is fairly subjective.

Sydnee Mack

Schools will have- and this is probably standard across all graduate programs- but they'll have a target score. The average, let's say, school will have a median LSAT score of 165, meaning the average student that gets admitted into this particular school has a 165. And then they have maybe a 3.8 GPA. So you can kind of have your measurement for- or kind of like your standards- for where you should be in order to have a shot at admissions into that particular law school. With the caveat that there are people who have above 165 LSATs and above 3.8 GPAs who aren't admitted. Then you also have people who are lower than 165 LSATs and lower than 3.8 GPAs who are also admitted. I think that- and it's not necessarily race specific- but I think that there is a sliding scale for median standards and metrics for persons of color, recognizing that standardized tests often come with certain biases.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

So to account for that- for example, I think the median LSAT score for the school that I was admitted to during the time when I was admitted was 165. I had a 150. I had a 3.8 GPA. So the GPA was there. The LSAT wasn't as strong. I had a strong - what's the SOP. I had a strong personal statement. I had some good letters of recommendation. I also was a pest. A lot of people don't know this. They tell you don't do this, but I called the school every day.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

They'll remember you. People say I don't want to bug them. I'm like, no, you want them to remember your name.

Sydnee Mack

You do. They tell you - because they don't want to be bombarded with calls. But I literally called the woman in admissions every day. She was my best friend. I do not think I would have gotten into that school without her. Actually, I'll tell the story. I actually got into the school off the waitlist. And when they called me, I was currently on a visit at another top law school that had already offered me admission and a scholarship- so I'll get to the scholarship portion in a second.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Nice.

Sydnee Mack

They had already offered me a fifty percent scholarship as well as admission. They called and said- hey, we can offer you a spot on the waitlist. And I was like- no, no, no. Actually, I called her for our weekly chat. They hadn't even sent me any information about me being on the waitlist yet. I called her and I was like, hey, girl, I'm here. Like, my parents are pressuring me to put a seat deposit down here because they've already offered me money. What's the deal- before I put my deposit down?

Sydnee Mack

She was like, I'm gonna tell you that you're on the waitlist. They're going to offer you a spot on the priority waitlist. And I was devastated.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

I was devastated. Because to me, I heard- I didn't get in.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

She counseled me through it. She was like- no girl. This is the priority waitlist. Once people - that first wave of people who do not accept a seat in the next year's class, the priority waitlist is immediately offered. I didn't know that as a first gen student. I didn't know that. I was like, well, do they offer scholarships to people on the priority waitlist? Because my mama said if they don't offer me no money, I can't go. She was like, actually, you have a higher chance of getting a scholarship from the priority waitlist than if you were a late round accepted.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

Because the people who are in the class who decline their offers who have scholarships, that scholarship money is now freed up. So she was like, all you have to do is accept your seat on the waitlist. I was like, I don't know. She was like, just what have you got to lose? All you have to do is tell me you accept it, and I can put you on the waitlist. So I was like fine, whatever. Literally three weeks later, they called, offered me a seat in the class with a 50% scholarship. That's how I ended up getting into the school.

Sydnee Mack

I like to tell that story too, because - back to your question about scholarships. Typically, the best shot at getting enough money to pay for law school is to earn a merit scholarship from the institution itself.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Sydnee Mack

It's not like undergrad where you probably have opportunities to piece together a bunch of little scholarships from the local church, and your mama's sorority, and whatever - whoever little people giving out scholarships. You can maybe piece together enough to put it together and you'll be alright. The best shot that you have at getting a scholarship that's going to put a dent in your tuition obligation is to earn a merit scholarship from the institution at which you are applying to. They typically will award merit scholarships upon acceptance based upon your application. There's generally nothing additional that you need to do to qualify for the scholarship. It's just something they will offer you upon admission. For funding law school, that's the best way.

Sydnee Mack

I will also say that at my alma mater, they also have additional full funding opportunities, like endowed scholarships that you can apply for once you've already been admitted. But it's usually only awarded to maybe two or three people in the class - very difficult to get. The best way to get the scholarship is on the front end. Then if you don't get what you want, I also learned that you can negotiate your scholarship. So when I got the phone call and got admitted to the school that I ultimately went to, they offered me more money than the school that I had put my seat deposit down on. Now, even though they had offered me more money, the tuition was much higher. So if you weighted it out in terms of percentages, it probably was a similar percentage - about 50%. But because tuition was $20,000 more per year, the dollar figure was more.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Sydnee Mack

I was like, I'm still going to try it. So I took it to them. I was like, look, they're offering me $80,000. Y'all are only offering me 60. What can you offer me more? They came up like $5,000 more, but it still wasn't enough.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's something.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah. You just kind of make a case and say, they're offering me this. You guys are ranked a little bit lower. This is a more prestigious institution based on- and they were willing to give me more. You should be willing to give me more. And sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. But that's honestly the best way to get some money for law school.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, it really doesn't hurt to ask. I like to remind people about that, because a lot of folks think - they're gonna think that I'm greedy. They're gonna rescind the offer. They're gonna change their minds. They're gonna realize it was a mistake. I'm like- no, no, no. If you don't ask, you're not going to get. If you don't ask, you won't find out about what you could have received.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I wanted to talk a little bit more - actually, before I get to that, going back to the funding. You said funding is primarily coming from the program that you're applying to and from that institution. So there are no sources of funding that are outside, that are external- like fellowships, scholarships you can apply to? For instance, when you're applying to graduate school, there are opportunities for you to apply to these national fellowships at the same time that you're applying to graduate school. Is that not the case in law school?

Sydnee Mack

I won't say it's not the case. It's just - for example, I was a scholar for a very large, prominent law firm that had an initiative to increase the pipeline of diverse lawyers in the profession. So they had a program for undergraduate students that you can apply to. They basically ushered you through the entire law school process, which means they paid for all of my law school applications.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Nice.

Sydnee Mack

They paid for all of my law school visits. They gave me a first year scholarship. I got to go for the summer for an intensive where I got to meet the partners. They paid for my LSAT prep.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah, it was definitely about $10,000 in funds that I received through in kind things. They didn't cut me a check for $10,000. They just basically bankrolled the whole application process, and walked me through it step by step. As a first generation law student, I don't know if I would have made it to law school or made it to the top- a top law school- without that help, because I didn't know what the process was. I didn't know. They had a program. As soon as you got into the program, there was a timeline. I had a coach, and she was like, you can enroll in class this semester or next semester for your LSAT class. Those are your options. Do you want to take this provider or that provider? Do you want a summer or a fall course? I didn't have to make any decisions. And once I told her I'm having an internship over the summer. I'll take the Fall course from this provider. The next day, I had my registration in my inbox. They paid for it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's so nice. But how did you find out about this program?

Sydnee Mack

I had a study group in law school- or not in law school, in undergrad.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

A small cohort of us that I felt like were really bright, and all had the goal of going to law school. We had a mentor who was an older alum of our school, and he kind of mentored us. And he was a scholar in the program. So we all got in because of him. They only picked one person from each school per year for HBCUs. They only picked one of us, and we were all in successive years. So we were the scholars for our school every year. Two of us got into Harvard. He went to Harvard, and I ended up at Emory. We all got into very prestigious law programs- first generation lawyers in our family. It was really because of him and that program that we were able to do that. That's how we found it.

Sydnee Mack

But I don't know how else you would find it, because it's not like people publicize it. You would just have to know about it or to do some research. But I know that UCLA has a similar program. There are other top law firms in the country that have similar programs. You have a higher shot of getting in if somebody recommends you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

It's very like speakeasy, kind of like you have to be tapped type of thing. Anybody who has ever asked me to tap them, I do. I don't know if they've made it. But lots of large law firms offer this. I think Sutherland has one. Sidley Austin has one. Yeah, UCLA has a program. There's CLEO that offers a program. But I say still that the law school is the best shot, because the law school scholarship that I received was $80,000.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

While I needed the scholarship that they offered me to get in because I wouldn't have been able to afford a LSAT course to get the LSAT score that I needed to get. It was necessary. But over the course of three years, $10,000 is a literal drop in the bucket. You know what I mean? And they were offering one of the larger awards. I think UCLA's program is like $5000. Sutherland's like $5000. So you can - they have these like little bits and pieces here. I don't know of any broad sweeping fellowships, like consortiums and things of that nature for law school specifically. I don't know of any. They may exist, but I don't know of any that's going to provide you with enough of a financial incentive to make it worth the time, effort, energy that it takes to apply to these things. I personally think that your best shot at getting funding that's going to actually make a significant impact on your financial obligation is that entry level merit scholarship?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing. I'm always curious- I'm like how do folks find out about these things? Because I mean, that's how I found out about my own grad prep program- the Mellon program- was from hearing from other folks, and then applying and thankfully getting it. So I'm curious, what are some things that you wish you knew about law school- when you were starting your program- that you know now?

Sydnee Mack

Honestly, I don't think there's anything. I don't know if there's anything that could have prepared me other than just knowing that it's going to be real - if my mama didn't listen to all my interviews, I'd probably drop an F bomb right now. But it's real hard. It's hard AF. And I feel like when you are a talented student, regardless of race, you expect to excel in every environment that you're in.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

Because I'm smart. I've always been smart. I've been making good grades since kindergarten. I'm gonna be dropped into this environment and it's going to be the same thing. For some folks, it works out that way. For many, especially first generation lawyers, it does not. Be prepared to struggle. If you don't struggle, consider it a blessing. But be prepared for the struggle. Be prepared not to be at the top of the class. Be prepared to get a C or two. You know what I mean? It's something that I hadn't experienced, and it was very jarring. It was very self esteem crushing

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

To be and consider yourself to be a high performer. I guess the one thing that I would say I wish I had known is that- people will always tell you in law school that your first year grades, they really set the tone for your trajectory. And that is true. I didn't want to believe it, because my first year grades were trash. So I had to believe there was a pathway forward for me with these trash grades, right? And there is. I don't want to say that there's not. There is still hope for you. But if you can do well your first year, it can set you on a trajectory.

Sydnee Mack

I read an article recently, that the legal profession is creating two trajectories. It's like a graph.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

It's like this. The people who finish at the top of their class, who go to the top schools, they're getting offered the first year summer associate positions that are $180,000 a year. So when we think about lawyers and them being rich- because I went to school to be- I wanted to be rich. I don't know what the rest of these people went for. If we help a few people along the way, great. But I did not take a vow of poverty to be a lawyer. That's generally not what you in the game for. Those people who get the big firm jobs, the big firm offers, who do well their first year, get set on a trajectory to pretty much be dang near a millionaire by the time you're 30.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Sydnee Mack

Because when you think about it, you're entering into the workforce at a salary of $180,000 a year plus bonus. You're on path to be set. Now, if you don't hit that first year, it doesn't mean you can't get there. It's just going to take you longer, right? My first job out of law school, I made $50,000 a year. A lot of people aren't having that conversation.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

See, that's what I want to hear about a little bit more. Because I've heard that on the other end of things too, that there's this impression that every single person out of law school gets this really high paying legal job. But that's not always the case, especially for folks who work - depending on what type of practice, depending on where you work, you might be making- like you said- $50,000 a year. Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

There are a lot of broke lawyers out there, and I was one of them. I would say that I'm in the seventh year of my practice, and the sixth year was the first year that I felt financially stable as an individual, as a human. And I had two jobs. I still have two jobs. I feel like I'm now at a point in my career where if I wanted to just do one job and make a good amount of money, I can now. That is my plan moving forward. But generally speaking, if you don't do well, you're not at the top of your class, you somehow- I think that what is the top of your class is different now. Because like I said, when I came out, nobody was getting no jobs. So you literally had to be in the 10% of your class to get any type of big firm job back then, I think now, if you're at the top 50% of your class and at a top school, you can still get there because firms are hiring like crazy right now.

Sydnee Mack

It's dependent on the legal market. It's dependent on where you went to school- I hate to say it. People are like, oh, just go to any law school. Where you go to school matters. The grades you get your first year matters. So if you somehow end up in the bottom 50% of your class, or you aren't hustling, aren't able to get that job, somehow end up at the Joe Schmo School of Law and Truffles, and you end up at a lower paying job, you can end up making 50, $60,000 a year. That sets you at a lower trajectory, right? Because then your next job, even if you're making 20% more, now you're making $75,000 a year.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right, yeah.

Sydnee Mack

Then okay, I get a little more the next job. Now I'm making $90,000 a year. You're still three years- maybe three promotions in or two job changes in. You're at 90, whereas your counterparts started at twice that, first year. So by the time they hit their third year, they're already looking at quarter of a million dollars without bonus potential. Because usually the jobs where you make $75,000 a year, you ain't getting no daggone bonus. You know what I mean? You're lucky if you're getting a health insurance.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

But I didn't have a 401k even. I didn't have a pension,. I didn't get a 401k. I didn't get any additional benefits other than my paycheck. So it put me on a path where I am significantly behind my contemporaries. And in terms of now- now I can command what a typical seventh year attorney is making. But my counterparts have been making that for the last six years. They have...

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Then when you do the math of all that- that there was that potential to make all of that in that time, that's a lot of money to lose.

Sydnee Mack

Even having the 401k benefits- like I said. This last year was the first year I ever had a 401k, and where my employer provided matching. If you were maxing out your 401k for those last seven years, with an employer match, plus the increase. So my wealth, my assets as a person- like yeah, now I have the potential and the ability to command the earning power. But I've missed out on six years of wealth building.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Sydnee Mack

That's why the trajectory goes like this. Eventually, you might get there...

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That compound interest was not working in your favor. Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

You almost never catch up. That's something to consider. Like I said, I think that they say that most lawyers around years eight to ten end up making about the same, because the profession values experience. So once you've gotten the experience, you can say all tenth year associates are probably going to be able to make around the same. But tenth year associate that was on the partner track from day one is now a millionaire, and you're still in the hole.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

And you haven't even accounted for paying back student loans, which also accrue interest and grow exponentially. I don't want to think about these things, but it's true.

Sydnee Mack

Well, I don't talk about student loans because I was very fortunate in that I didn't have them. Since I was a division one athlete in undergrad, I got a full scholarship to undergrad. I got almost a full scholarship to law school, and then I was able to cover the rest out of pocket. I was living like in a shack. That's the other thing that people don't tell you- because my parents really didn't want me to take out loans. So I was living in a 400 square foot apartment with my boyfriend at the time. You know what I mean? Like very, not the highlife at all. It was a struggle, and we were eating popcorn and apples for dinner sometimes. But I didn't have to take out the loan. I'm very grateful that my parents like pushed me to just take the L in the interim because I didn't have to worry about loans. But if you don't take out loans, people assume you don't because you have money and like you're just bankrolling, right? You could just be struggling too, but just struggling on the front end instead of the back end.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

Luckily, I don't have the loans but I do know that that is a consideration- a huge one for people as well- in determining what they can afford and the affordability of life. And it's a struggle.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I mean, I'm glad that that you mentioned that too, because like you said, there were sacrifices that you made in order to not have the student loan. So yes, you got the scholarships, but then you had to get the merit scholarships. Then after that, making the decisions of your lifestyle and what you're going to do to make sure that you- it's really easy to take out loans. It's too easy to do it.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But it's important to consider the numbers and to consider the outcome, and to consider - like you said, I'm glad that you mentioned- I was not aware of the two tracks. Like if you don't do well your first year, that could really, really set you off on a track that will take you a lot longer for wealth building. And that's important, especially as a woman of color when we're already - there's already a huge salary discrepancy between women of color, Black women, Latinas in these industries. When you compare it to the dollar potential of what a white male will earn in these spaces, it's important to try to kind of get a head start in as many ways as possible financially, to set ourselves up and our future generations up for success and for financial wealth building.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I was going to ask you about the benefits and challenges of law school. I think you've already started to share a little bit about that. But I'm wondering about the distinct challenges that you faced, if you don't mind sharing? Or that other - from your observations, what are some of the challenges that women of color face in law school? I have a feeling a lot of them will be similar to grad school, will be similar to just living in the United States and to just being a person of color, being a woman, being a woman of color in this world. But specifically in law school, are there any specific types of things that come to mind?

Sydnee Mack

So the distinction that I want to make about law school is that the - I want to say, challenges that I faced were not necessarily gendered or associated with ethnicity, more so class and economic status. The legal profession does not favor those of any race or any gender that did not come from a particular echelon of the society. And that's just it, period. If you have parents that are rich, you're going to be better off. if you have parents that are well connected, or family members that are well connected, you're going to have an easier go of it. If you're not the first gen in your family to be at law school, you're gonna have an easier go of it.

Sydnee Mack

I mean, if you have- and I always tell this story. I remember one of my classmates at Emory, and she's a lovely woman. No shade to her at all. But the first day of school at class, this professor asked us what we did for the summer. This is the first day of law school.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I hate that question.

Sydnee Mack

Listen, we hadn't even set foot at the law school yet. This is the first day of one-oh year. What'd you do over the summer? She was like, oh, I interned at the New York Attorney General's Office. We were like, oh my God. That's so wonderful. That's so prestigious. And the professor was like, well, how'd you end up doing that? She was like, my father is the Attorney General of New York. You know what I mean? Like, that's going to make it an easier go of it for you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

And I know. When I had my first internship at the - I won't say where I had it, but it was at a very large sports company. I was able to intern at some very large sports companies when I was in law school because I was scrappy. I was scrappy. I was like, I want to work in sports. So I ended up getting that opportunity a- because I was a division one athlete. I wrote a really good personal statement and everything like that. And I had at the time an old boyfriend who was working in the mailroom. I was like, yo, I know you have access to the directory for every single person at that company. I need you to give me the email addresses and phone numbers for these three people in the legal department.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Look at you.

Sydnee Mack

And this man works in the mailroom, right? He knew nobody. But he was like, yo, I got you. So I called these people every day until they answered. I emailed them. Finally, the chief legal officer- who was also Black- agreed to meet with me. He was like, I love your energy. Please let me know if there's anything I could do to help you out. So I went through the process of interviewing. Before I went to law school, I was a publicist. I was in PR. I went through the process. A lot of these internship programs, they have interns in lots of departments. Legal is just one department. So I went through the process.

Sydnee Mack

Even though I was in law school- I applied for the legal kind of fellowship- they were like, we're gonna offer you the one in PR. I was like, but that don't even make no daggone sense. I'm trying to be a lawyer. But I took it because it was an opportunity. I took it because it was an opportunity. But I called the legal department because I had their numbers. I was like, hey, yo. If there's anything yall can do for me. I really need to be in legal. Can I work on some projects for y'all, anything? I really need to be in legal. And they were like, we'll try to help you out. Because of the people in the legal department, who I had been harassing, they accepted a second intern.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Nice.

Sydnee Mack

But the person that they accepted was a white female from a very privileged background, whose father was the CEO of a very large foundation in the same industry, and was very of that business was very well connected. This was a diversity program. And I'm like, how in God's name did they feel like if there was only one, it should have been her over me? You know what I mean? Not that she wasn't brilliant, but if this was a diversity program. I was blown away when I got there and I saw who they had chosen first, and who I had to beg, borrow and steal to get in. But that was the benefit for her.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

She had connections. Her family had money. They had wealth. They had access. So she was able to get an opportunity that I had to beg, borrow and steal for, you know?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's the unfortunate reality actually.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You know, the population that has benefited the most from these diversity opportunities are predominantly white women. Now you mentioning- we hear people say this all the time- that it's not what you know, it's who you know. Over and over and over again. And you sharing these examples, it's hard to come to terms with it until you witness it. Then you realize, this is what they meant. This is why I need to put myself out there- and you did.

Sydnee Mack

I mean it worked out.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Whether you had to get them from the mailroom, or whatever you needed to do.

Sydnee Mack

Listen, this man had a whole fiancee at this time. I was like, look. I know we haven't spoken in years, but I need you to do me this solid. And he was more than happy to do it. I want to say it made me a stronger person- and it did. It's made me incredibly resilient, tenacious. But I don't want to be resilient and tenacious. I want my mom or dad to make a phone call and get me a job too. That would be fantastic. That just unfortunately isn't my story or my reality. It's no shade against her. If I had the connections and the access, I would absolutely use it too. So I'm not mad at her for doing that. That's what you should do. But when you are-

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, I mean we do this with the people we know. We help them out. We support each other.

Sydnee Mack

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

So I get where you're coming from when you say that. Like no offense to her.

Sydnee Mack

No.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

She had the connections and opportunities that a lot of us just don't happen to have.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah. She should rely on that. Her parents work hard so that she could have the access that she had. It's just that when you are the first to penetrate a space, you're the first. There is no one before you. There is no access. There is no connections. You're literally- one of my friends who came on my show she said, some people just have the door and they just get to walk through it without considering that there are some of us who got to build the door, build the frame, put the door in the frame and then we got to walk through it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Maybe we've never walked through a door and we're scared too.

Sydnee Mack

Yeah, so we all walking through doors. But you don't know how much somebody else had to do in order for their door to even exist, let alone open.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right. In light of everything you've shared about your own experiences, if you could do this all over again, is there anything you would do differently? With your trajectory, with even going to law school and your career as it stands today. I know you mentioned there's the two tracks. Then you mentioned, actually, you don't need to become a lawyer- or you don't need to go to law school- to go in this career track.

Sydnee Mack

Well, I think that honestly, I wouldn't change anything because everything that has happened has made me who I am today. You know, every thing that happens to you is a chapter in your story and a part of your journey. I feel like maybe if I hadn't had that experience, there might be a part of me that's different now.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

Maybe I would be less empathetic now, or maybe I wouldn't be able to relate to my students in the way that I do. Maybe I wouldn't be able to relate to my clients in the way that I do. Because one thing that I find that annoys the crap out of me is that a lot of lawyers- especially those who come from privileged backgrounds- they have very little sympathy or empathy in the way that they relate to their clients, especially ones that come from indigent backgrounds. That bugs me. Don't talk to people like that. You have no idea what this person went through to be in the position that they're in right now. And the lack of empathy. I understand why there's a lack of empathy, because it's hard for you to understand or relate to somebody if you haven't been through something. I've been through some things, right?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Sydnee Mack

So when I sit here and I'm looking at my client, I'm like, I know what you're going through. I've been a defendant. I've been a client. You know what I mean? I am going to help shepherd you through this very difficult part of your journey in a way that is human, and that makes you feel warm, secure and protected. Like I got you, because I needed somebody to be that for me when I was going through some of the lowest moments in my journey as an attorney, as a woman, as a Black woman, all of that. So no, I wouldn't. I mean, could it have been a little bit easier? Yeah. But would I maybe have been a different person? Probably. So I guess it was just part of my journey.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right. Thank you. We're getting close to wrapping up. I am curious. You've already shared so many gems and lots of advice, in terms of what track to go on, or how to set yourself up for success. But are there any other words of advice you have to share, specifically for the first gen folks? The folks who, they're the first ones in their family considering considering going to law school, or the students of color, or maybe they're working class. They know that they're going in, they're not going to have the advantage of having the family member who has the in for them, or having the the income to be able to support them financially. What kind of advice do you have for them? Or closing words, as we wrap up the episode.

Sydnee Mack

My biggest advice would be get yourself a village. Get yourself a good mentor. Get yourself a good coach. If that person doesn't exist for you in your family, in your close network of childhood friends, college friends, law school friends, seek the person out and lean on them heavily. I can't tell you how many- because before I was a professor, I was a mentor at my alma mater for other Black students. I'm not even saying brown- Black students, because those are the students that spoke to me. When I was a mentor, I had students that were sleeping on my couch when they couldn't afford to pay their rent. You know what I mean?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

I had students that come to me like, I couldn't afford to pay my cell phone bill. Can I just come and hang out and chill with your Wi Fi? I got you. You know what I mean? Little things like that. I used to host family dinners for my mentees, because, like I said, when I was in law school, there were times where I was eating popcorn and apples, because that's all I had in my pocket. That's all I could afford. I would host dinners for them. And as a young attorney, I didn't have any money. Sometimes I was spending my last $60 to make sure my kids could eat. But I was like, I'm gonna make sure my kids can eat. Get somebody in your corner who has been where you've been, or is where you want to be. Really develop that relationship, because as much as I mentor people, I did that because I had that support and I had people in my corner who were there to usher and shepherd me in and through the profession. I would not have made it.

Sydnee Mack

And my family, I love my family. They support me. But they've never been more I'm trying to go. They don't know what I'm trying to do. I could sit down ask my mama right now- I don't think she even knows what I do. She'd be like, I know that she's a lawyer. You know, she be negotiating stuff. She has no idea what I do, and I can't expect her to.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Sydnee Mack

I know she loves me. She supports me. But in order for me to get to where I need to get, I need to be able to get advice from people who have been where I'm trying to go, who know the landscape, who know the players. Especially for people of color, I find that we are trying to reinvent the wheel every-

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Sydnee Mack

Do not reinvent the frickin wheel. Get help. Get help, find somebody. I had one of my mentees who had, unfortunately, not passed the bar. They were like, I'm done. Maybe I'm not meant to be a lawyer. I said, I don't care if I have to pay for it- put it on my credit card- for you to sit for the bar again. You're not moving on from this phase of your life without bar passage. And they had to take it two more times. But when they passed, they called me and was like, I would not have had the foresight to continue on if you hadn't pushed. I'm like, when you have kids and you have a wife, you're not gonna want to take no daggone bar. You know what I mean? Like, do not delay this. He was like, oh, I don't need a bar. I can do something else.

Sydnee Mack

But what if five years from now an opportunity of your dreams comes about and it requires a bar license and you ain't got it? You need to be prepared for the opportunities when they come. And if you had just said, I'm gonna take a JD preferred job. I'm not gonna get my bar license and your dream job comes about, you're not prepared to meet that opportunity. Now you scrambling, trying to take a bar. You ain't even studied for nothing in ten years. Who trying to do that? No. Get you a mentor, someone and some people who really care about you, who can pick you up, who can two finger tap you and say, girl, you acting up. Do better. You're about to ruin this opportunity. Because I've had people do that to me too. You bout to mess this up. Like, get your ish together. Somebody who's gonna be real with you, honest with you, care about you, and push you to where you're trying to get to.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

If only there was a directory that I could be like, go here. Find your match. Get together. I mean, I know it's true. Finding a village, getting a mentor- or a femtor- that is so critical. It can be hard to put yourself out there. It can be hard to find like- minded individuals. It can be hard to find people who look like you when you happen to be the first of many, or among the first. But it's true. If you don't try, if you don't bother, if you don't invest in these relationships, then it's gonna be a lot harder. So thank you for reminding us about the importance of a village and the importance of mentorship.

Sydnee Mack

Well, you are the femtor. You're the femtor.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, that's why I'm like femtorship is critical. Because I know that my experience was I didn't always have the greatest. I did have some good mentors and femtors. But there's a lot that I wish that I had been told. There was a lot that I wish that I had known. And that's why I bring guests like you, to shed light on the stuff, on the hidden curriculum, the stuff that people don't tell you about admissions, about the experience, about getting to that next step in your career, in your life. So yes, thank you so much, Sydnee, for coming on the show today. I really, really appreciate you sharing a wealth of knowledge, a wealth of wisdom, experience, and all of your insights today.

Sydnee Mack

This was fun. Thank you for having me.