158: Carving an Intersectional and Interdisciplinary Path in Grad School with Xochitl Clare

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Welcome back, everyone, to the Grad School Femtoring podcast. This is your host, Dra. Yvette. Today I have an episode dedicated to all the intersectional and interdisciplinary scholars out there. You know who you are.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Our special guest is Xochitl Clare, and she's gonna be talking to us all about how much she has been carving an intersectional and interdisciplinary path in grad school. Xochitl is an Afro- Latina marine biologist and performing artist with Caribbean and Central American heritage. We will discuss her work in theatre and film and how she uses it to communicate climate change issues. Her PhD research provides valuable insights on how ecosystems and the fisheries they support are coping with ocean warming, and how this could impact daily livelihoods. Xochitl will also share her work in using the combined power of science and storytelling to empower a new generation of diverse ocean explorers. Welcome to the podcast, Xochitl.

Xochitl Clare

Hello, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, I'm happy to have you here. I feel like- yes, finally, our schedules aligned and we were able to make this work.

Xochitl Clare

Yes, finally.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I know. For folks who don't know you, I would love for you to get us started by letting us know a little bit more about who you are, what you do, and maybe a little bit more about your backstory.

Xochitl Clare

Yes. I come from a family of immigrants, like you mentioned. My mom is from Jamaica and her family emigrated to the United States. Likewise, my dad is from Belize, in Central America. So I have a lot of Caribbean coastal heritage, as well as Central American heritage- like a mixture of peoples. All I heard about growing up was nature, in the way that it was just a part of everyone's lives on both sides of my family.

Xochitl Clare

Although I grew up in California- most people think, oh Californians, they spent so much time in the ocean. That wasn't the case for me. I grew up in Glendale, which is really inland. It was just kind of growing up in a single parent household where education was the primary thing. And it wasn't until I was much older that I learned how to swim- in college. Now I'm happy to say that Il've spent a lot of time in the oceans. I have that appreciation of coming into being a marine biologist, a person of the sea, a little bit later in life. But I also carry all of the stories from my family with me into everything that I do, including my art. That's one of my primary modes of expression. So yeah, I guess that's a bit about me.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow, I don't think I realized that you learned to swim as an adult, because we have that in common. The growing up in the San Fernando Valley, SoCal part, single single parent household, and also learning to swim as an adult- although I am not as brave as you.

Xochitl Clare

Oh, thank you.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You actually go in and dive, like full on marine biologist. That's really inspiring. I just want to say that, because I think that there are a lot of folks out there who might still be living under these conditions, who might be dreaming of one day- maybe it's just learning to swim. Maybe it's taking it a step further like you. And to know that that's a possibility. It's helpful to hear your voice and your experience with that.

Xochitl Clare

Yes, thank you. And yes, whether it's the ocean or just being in nature, coming into it a bit later in life is a challenge. I was so lucky. I actually don't like that word lucky. But I was fortunate to be surrounded by people who were always cheering me on every step of the way. I think that was a big part of being able to overcome those fears, and also financial hurdles that come with trying to be in nature.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

There's so many barriers- and financial tends to be the main one for many people of color in the United States. So that was huge, having a lot of people in my corner pointing to sources of grants and little small scholarships just to get me started.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right, yeah. I mean, that's true, too. That's a big barrier, even access to pools, access if you're trying to learn to scuba dive. That's not cheap.

Xochitl Clare

Right, yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Access to equipment, yeah. Actually- you know, you've already started to hint at this with talking about your background, and mentioning more about your intersectional identity- about what it's like being Afro Latina. But then also, your interests are very interdisciplinary. I would love to hear more about how you interpret these terms, and how they influence your work.

Xochitl Clare

Yes. I guess when I think about performing arts, performance, all of that is narrative and storytelling. And I know that at least for me, I learned science through stories. I identified with nature through the many different stories of the animals that live within that scientifically- and then also, otherwise. So I guess, since we learn through stories, for me it was, okay. So to communicate science, making it relatable to people who may not feel that science is for them, storytelling is the way to go. That's kind of how I started to frame my outlook on being a marine biologist. It's not only doing the science, but finding the place where we humans can really feel that it's also our story. The planet's journey right now is our journey.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right. That storytelling aspect, I think, is what makes it really relatable. In terms of the work that you do, I know that you have a performing arts background, and then you also are pursuing marine biology. I mean, can you tell us how you got to those? I mean, I get the marine biology part now. But where does the performing arts part come from? Or how did you get to that?

Xochitl Clare

I came into science as a theatre artist first. I knew from a very early age, it was the only thing that I always did, that was always consistent. My whole life was performing. I was always in plays, I directed plays, I wrote plays, in production. Anything that had to do with theater, I had my hands in it. And that's something that I was like, well, this is a part of me. But also my very strong fascination with marine biology was a part of me from very young.

Xochitl Clare

So I never really decided. I had so much pressure to pick one.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

You know, every counselor was saying, pick one, pick one. It's very difficult to pursue those two very different things. But I think by pursuing them at the same time, they enriched the other. I became a stronger performer by understanding the scientific mind, because as much as people think sometimes performance arts is very floofy. It's in the air. And some of that is true. A lot of performance does take a lot of deep reflection. Performance is the analysis of our worlds.

Xochitl Clare

So as an actor, when I sit down, I have a very similar approach in my mind, as a scientist, when I sit down, and I try to analyze the world before me. Those two minds have always been one for me. And I think the challenge was communicating that to others.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

And helping them understand that this is a way of doing things- and it has worked. I think this is something that I know that I'm going to do. So always having that confidence, and always being able to share, and kind of show the inner workings of how I see things. Then find people who are like, well, I don't really understand that. But I want to invite you to show me more about that. I think those were the people that I found could be really great mentors to me, even if they didn't fully get it at the time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You've already started to mention some of the challenges and some of the benefits. So with the benefits, thinking about how they complement and inform each other. But then the challenges of communicating it to others, perhaps even receiving some pushback, or hearing from others encouraging you to pursue one route over the other. Was that the main or has that been the primary challenge for you in navigating grad school now? Or what are some other challenges- and also some benefits that you've gained in pursuing both? I know that you are in a doctoral program right now and you're pursuing marine biology. But also, you're still doing your performing arts work. I'm curious what your current benefits and challenges are as we speak.

Xochitl Clare

Yes. This is not specific to my current university. It's just how we have divided our universities structurally, that make it challenging to do interdisciplinary work. If you are trying to do across humanities to engineering kind of thinking, we make it really difficult to reward people for that kind of out of the box thinkin. And the way that looks like is different for graduate students versus faculty. As a graduate student, you have a lot of really strict steps and milestones that you need to take to get your PhD. Also, as a new faculty member, you might have those milestones that you do need to also think about too.

Xochitl Clare

So I would meet very synergetic,nteresting faculty that would love to sit with me and brainstorm about cross- disciplinary ideas. But then we would both come up with roadblocks within our departments or our commitments, that would make it difficult to commit to each other and creating together. I do see now, today, that there's a lot of discussion on this. I think, and I'm seeing, that people are really interested in creating more pathways where people are rewarded for this. I've been able to be a part of a lot of those conversations, as I'm moving on from my PhD. So it gives me a lot of hope, actually.

Xochitl Clare

Even most recently, I participated in an environmental film program as a marine biology PhD student, and also kind of as an honorary theater arts person on campus. Both of those worlds kind of came together in being able to inform how I worked with the film program, because I have all this insight on the local Santa Barbara marine biology, and all this insight on storytelling, which we know is essential to get these messages across. So through a couple of projects that I've worked on lately, I'm seeing that come together. And that's been so cool. So when I move on from my PhD, that's kind of something that I was maybe when I started grad school, a lot more hesitant to lean into.

Xochitl Clare

But now that I've had these projects under my belt, when I'm say, proposing to be, let's say, a postdoctoral researcher. My proposals are split evenly between my intention to work with storytelling and marine science, and also my climate science goals. Now that I've been able to do that, I've had a lot of support. Writing about these things is very difficult. I know that you guys, especially on this podcast, we talk about proposal writing. We talk about what those different passports are to move forward in academia. And so because I'm writing about these very different things to an academic audience that isn't used to seeing these two things side by side in an application, I've had to take a lot of time to connect with writing mentors who can help me really make a strong case for what I'm trying to accomplish. Yeah, so those are the some of the different ways.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You know, your profile as a graduate student is particularly or it stands out to me, because when I think about someone who's pursuing interdisciplinary research, I think the folks who are in interdisciplinary PhD programs. In your case, you're not in an interdisciplinary program, per se, but you're carving it yourself. So you are merging fields in the way that you are, I guess, through the lens that you provide, and in the way that you are intentional about the storytelling aspect, the importance of that in your work.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I think that that's really powerful, because it sends a message to other folks who are interested in applying to graduate school, that they too can carve their own path, even if it's not laid out, even if the foundation is not there when they're looking and applying to graduate programs. There is a possibility. Yes, they might find some barriers. It might be challenging. There might be some pushback. But if you make a strong case, there's definitely that, I guess I would say- it's discipline specific, but there are there are more options than what you just see at face value when you look at doctoral programs.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

When you were applying to go graduate school, I'm curious about that, too. How did you approach that? Were you thinking about, oh, I want to work with people who are going to be open to my very kind of different interests. Or were you set on marine biology, and maybe, you weren't 100% sure about integrating the performing arts side of it, or the storytelling side of it? I'm just curious, what were your thoughts going into the grad school application process?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Then after that, hopefully, we can talk about the career side of things too, because that's also something that folks take into account. And I actually am working with folks right now, who have asked me- do I need to stick to applying to one program when I have these different interests? I don't usually recommend just sticking to one program. I recommend looking for the folks and the resources that most align with what you want to do. So I'm curious about that, about your grad school kind of decision making process. Then we can talk a little bit more about what your thoughts are with career planning too.

Xochitl Clare

Yes, that is a great question. I just want to flag that my partner is in fact on his way. So I think what I'll do is I will mute in between, when it gets loud. You just let me know if it's hard to hear me, and I can repeat an answer.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Okay, no problem.

Xochitl Clare

Yes. So I guess, first thinking about applying to grad school. All of the advice that I'm sure you give out on this podcast of interview your PI's when you're at the interview is essential, especially for interdisciplinary work. Sometimes you don't lay your cards out on the table fully. You want to survey to see how has this other person on the other side of the table thought already interdisciplinarily? For example, if I were in an interview, I might bring up- you know, well, it's awesome that this department has all of these variety of resources. It seems like given the things that you're trying to accomplish, maybe this department could benefit from working with X department. Had you ever thought about that? Or do you know of anyone who's done that here?

Xochitl Clare

If their answer is no, but wow, that's a cool idea. That shows you right there that you guys can have a conversation where you can grow together, right? However, if you feel like you're inching on area that's uncomfortable for that person for whatever reason, it could give you a hint as to what it means to try to collaborate across departments at that particular university.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Xochitl Clare

That's kind of what I did. As I would get answers that felt like, okay, this person, I can go further. Basically, what I was saying is that interviewing the person across the table is important. Always on my hand, I have five important things on each finger that I'm thinking about. For me, it was diversity first.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

Access to resources for the kinds of research that I want to do. And thirdly, it was collaboration. How open is this group, is this department, or the people that I'm talking to, to talking to folks who have a different perspective? That's kind of how I navigated a lot of my interviews.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's really funny, because I actually have an upcoming episode that will be released before this one, all about some primary reasons to interview or to reach out and contact prospective professors- in your case, prospective PIs. And that's information that you can only get if you talk to them. You can't make that assumption, just basing it off of what you see on a website. You never really know what direction their future work is going. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, the importance of interviewing them. Then knowing what your main priorities are. So in your case, you said diversity, collaboration- and then what was the third one? You said diversity, collaboration-

Xochitl Clare

And then resources.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

Because I noticed, especially when I was interviewing, you may have all this interest in collaboration. But if I'm going to do all this- let's be honest- extra work in creating always bridges between departments. That's something that kind of goes under radar in terms of my time as a grad student. It's mostly on me to do and be the ambassador and the liaison. That means that I will need more resources, if I'm honest.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Xochitl Clare

To support me through this journey that's going to be a little bit more taxing than staying within one disciplinary lane. When I'm talking about resources, I mean like financial. I talked a bit about writing coaches. Can I just- if my PI doesn't understand, my advisor doesn't understand what I'm trying to do- can I work with someone who's kind of a third party writing coach to help me get better at writing about my interdisciplinary goals before I bring it to them?

Xochitl Clare

That was really important to me, that I felt like I wouldn't be siloed in this group. You know, that happens a lot in grad school, especially in STEM, where you have only five to ten potential people in your lab at a time that are in your same career stage. So does that mean that I only have to- in this lab, or in this research group, or in this program- am I welcome to go essentially talk to other people? Do people feel weird about people who talk to other people? That is something that's kind of like a intuitive check that you can feel. Because for me, I needed to talk to other people, quite frankly, for not only reasons of scholarship and interdisciplinary work, but also finding folks who maybe identified with me more ethnically and culturally.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Right.

Xochitl Clare

I need that kind of support. So if I'm adding on interdisciplinary work to the complex array of what already is a PhD, I need to feel like I can talk to people outside of this group, this department.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah, I am hearing what you're saying and I'm curious if you are taking a similar approach in your own career planning, because I can imagine it's a lot of work to carve your own. This is the way that we differ, because I was in an interdisciplinary Ph.D. program. I was in theater and performance studiesm, so that was embedded in the program. We were required to take courses outside of our department. It was part of kind of the structure.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

In your case, you are the one that's going out, and advocating for yourself,and making the connections and doing the collaboration. That's- like you said- added work. So I'm curious kind of how this experience thus far- and I know you're getting closer to finishing up your doctorate program. You're on the other side.

Xochitl Clare

Yes.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It's not the early years. You're getting close to finishing up. So now, I do feel comfortable asking you this because you are closer to your graduation. What are your thoughts and approach for career planning?

Xochitl Clare

Yes. Right now, I'm pursuing postdoctoral fellowships. And when I'm out there, kind of looking to future collaborators, I'm trying to stand on two legs and be really confident in what I've already accomplished. But also understanding that there's some more growth that I definitely want to have.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

And so to have that growth, I'm looking to see- let's say, if it's a postdoctoral position at an academic institution. Well, how does their media department do? How does their theater department do? And would I feel at home, kind of just tapping on their doors? Also, a little bit of kind of testing the waters. I feel like at this stage, when you move into a postdoctoral position, the idea is that you're supposed to cross pollinate for some of these positions, where I'm being gloriously infected by your ways of thinking, and I'm kind of also pollinating you with some new ways of thinking. That's a wonderful relationship.

Xochitl Clare

So I'm trying- you know, being in the moment even more so than whenever I was interviewing for graduate school, and really allowing a conversation of growth to happen in these interviews is what I've been really thinking about, and seeing if - well, respectfully, I really think that you guys could do this better in terms of storytelling and communicating. And it's something that I'm really good at, and I would love to bring that to your group. Is that something that you'd be excited about? Could I mentor your students in that?

Xochitl Clare

Usually, the response has been very positive. And likewise, okay, there's a lot of things that are going on in the climate biology space that I could stand to learn a little bit more about. I think by being as a part of this collaboration for a couple of years as a postdoctoral researcher, we can make that happen. So I'm becoming a little bit of an entrepreneur, and that's been really fun, especially because being a performer slash scientist isn't really a space that exists strongly professionally. Aside from really showing that I have a professional background in that, it's treating myself that way.

Xochitl Clare

I think it's funny, because in acting class, they would always tell us - a certain point, you're going to need to call yourself an actor. Why not do that today? We have in STEM, and in a lot of our grad support programs for undergraduates, we call our students rising sophomores, rising seniors. So I've had to just lean into it. You know, I am a scientific communicator, filmmaker, media maker, and I'm a climate scientist. This is what I can give you professionally.

Xochitl Clare

I think by really fully just stepping into the shoes has made it easier in trying to find a new career path, because I'm embracing the fact that, well, hey, I'm doing it and I am doing it professionally. So yeah, I think academia, unfortunately, makes us sometimes- the way that it's traditionally set up with the whole tutelage and apprenticeship model.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes.

Xochitl Clare

I think sometimes erases- if you don't remind yourself of your accomplishments, you might find yourself erasing that identity from yourself, if you're not mindful. So I think that since I really have spent a lot of time in the academic world, it's about being in both spaces at the same time. Because in the humanities, and sometimes the performing arts disciplines, academia is kind of suck it. You don't really need to be in the academic field, has to be an excellent philosopher, or performer, or practitioner of these things.

Xochitl Clare

And having to balance that perspective, and being like- well yeah, I am an expert in some ways, but I'm also learning- is tricky, especially if you've been in school. I think I've been in school. I haven't taken a break. I'm one of those people. So it's also really checking in and being like, okay, so choose. You move on, Treat yourself as you want to see yourself, even if you're not where you want to be exactly. That's how you get there.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I'm actually glad that you mentioned the entrepreneurship part, because I do think there are some parallels in you saying that you're carving your own path. And in my case, entrepreneurship, pursuing that and having to figure things out as you go. A big thing with entrepreneurship is figuring out your mission, your vision, your values, and being very clear and intentional about what you're going to do and why. I think that's, in many ways, what you're doing.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You are not allowing the institution and the disciplinary boundaries to limit and to constrain and to silo you, if you know that maybe your vision, your values, your ideas of what you want to do out in the world may kind of go outside of these boundaries. So I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I do think that that's helpful, you know, to rethink how you approach and how you design your own grad school and career path.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I know we're getting close to wrapping up, so I have just two more questions for you. The second to last question is words of advice. Do you have any closing words or words of advice for first gen, students of color, who are interdisciplinary, who are interested in doing things in a different way? Maybe they too are kind of struggling with fitting into one mold. Maybe it's because of their interest. Maybe it's also they too have an intersectional identity. What kind of advice would you give them as they approach grad school and their careers?

Xochitl Clare

Yes, I have two points. One is remind yourself every day that living in all the different worlds of your interest. interdisciplinarily is actually a wonderful gift. It's so exciting that you're trying something new, and celebrate yourself a lot. Dive into the reasons why you love those things a lot and remind yourself of that, because graduate school is a process. It's not necessarily who you are, and you're bringing yourself to that process. But it's not defining of who you are, or who you become- kind of like a driver's license. You wouldn't be able to be an F1 racer if you didn't have your driver's license. So a PhD is very similar. It's kind of just like a passport to go to the next thing. And to try to get as much as you can and have that experience is the main goal, right?

Xochitl Clare

I would say, also, think to the future. The things that you're thinking about, if they're not necessarily already in front of you, very well will be in the future a standard and normative thing. When I was up against my high school counselor trying to argue for taking theater classes and science classes at the same time- now, I'm seeing so many interdisciplinary programs that mesh science, communication and the other interests that I have. So know that the future will likely be very different, and that you're preparing yourself for that- to be an expert, when the time comes.

Xochitl Clare

You will be able to whip out all your fancy cards that you've been working on for a really long time, and you'll be wowing everyone That's kind of a plus about thinking ahead. They say that a PhD- the topic that you pick your first year, by the time you're done, it will be old.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Xochitl Clare

It'll be five to six years old, or even more than that. So that's a plus side for interdisciplinary folks, because you're creating something new. Hold on to that, because by the time you're done, it'll be like, wow. Everyone's gonna want to know about it. Oh, that's very cool. You know, time will catch up, so keep pushing.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Thank you so much for sharing that. I can definitely agree with all of that. For folks who resonated with what you shared, and who would like to stay in touch or connect in some way, shape, or form, how can they reach you?

Xochitl Clare

They can reach me via my Instagram. That's the handle @XochitlClare. I'm usually very, very, very, very responsive. But if you want to shoot me an email as well, just message your email as a DM and we'll definitely touch base. I'm super excited to hear from you, and I love brainstorming- even if you're not interested in theater and marine biology. Even if you're not interested in marine biology and theater, and if there's just some other mashup of things that you're trying to try, I'd be happy to brainstorm together and talk more.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Great. Well, thank you so much, Xochitl, for coming on the show, for sharing your experiences, your knowledge, your wisdom with us today. It was really great hearing from you today.

Xochitl Clare

Yes, thank you so much.