156: From Study Abroad to Life in the Netherlands with Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Hey welcome back everyone to the Grad School Femtoring podcast. This is your host Dra. Yvette, and today I have an episode all about what it's like going from studying abroad in undergrad to living a life abroad in the Netherlands. Our special guest is Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh, and she is a program officer at ECHO: Expertise Center for Diversity Policy.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

She has been involved in multiple projects surrounding diversity and inclusion in the US and in the Netherlands. During her studies at UCLA, she combined her sociology major with extracurricular projects and access and outreach, to contribute to social justice change in education and society. In 2016, she participated in a summer exchange program at Vrije University that focused on the decolonization discourse in Europe. Then in 2019, she moved to Amsterdam to begin a new life with her family, and to continue the necessary work of diversity and inclusion in the Netherlands. I should also mention she's a fellow Chicana. Welcome to the show, Laura.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Thank you so much, Dra. Yvette. This is a really amazing opportunity, and I just want to take the time to thank you for sharing your platform with me.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Of course. I'm so glad that you reached out. It's just so nice to reconnect. For the folks who don't know our relationship, maybe we can mention a little bit about how we met.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, we can definitely go ahead and share that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. Laura is actually one of my former students- when I was an instructor for the transfer summer program at UCLA. For those of y'all that are TSP alum or former TSP students, you know what we're talking about. I know, we want to go "woo woo." Can you get us started by telling us a little bit more about who you are, what you do, maybe a little bit about your backstory, and how did you get to where you are today? Because my head is going- I feel like a mile a minute, wondering - wait. How does a Chicana from California, who went to UCLA, end up in Amsterdam?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, right? It's actually quite a story. But I'll start off with a little bit of background about me. I am from California. I was born and raised in LA. I'm a Chicana. I'm a first generation, low income- well I was a low income student. I graduated from UCLA, where we actually met through the TSP program. I'm also a mama. I have a daughter, she's almost four. She's literally my heart. I'm a wife, an hermana, a daughter. Yeah, kind of just all of these different intersectionalities.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

The reason how I ended up in the Netherlands was actually because I was part of the AAP program at UCLA, which is the academic advanced program. And there was this opportunity. I had this email sent to me as a student during my undergraduate years. It said, there was this opportunity to study abroad, and it was really focused on social justice. And I thought, wow. This sounds really interesting, and I've never studied abroad. So I thought, this is perfect, because it was actually one of my goals to study abroad during undergrad.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Can I put a pause on that?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

You said it was one of your goals to study abroad. And some of us have that as like a dream, but it feels really lofty. What made you decide- I'm gonna do it and not let maybe certain limiting beliefs, like I can't afford it, or it's too far away from my family, or, I've never done that, neer been on my own, or it's kind of scary. Because you said it sounded very interesting, especially the social justice component, and clearly you did it. So what got you over the edge to actually applying and going?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Well, actually, it was actually the funding that kind of changed my mind and it kind of made me want to do it because there was funding provided through the program. I always, I can't advocate enough for study abroad programs that have some kind of funding or maybe scholarship attached to it. I can't stress it enough. I always feel like students should have the right. No matter what socio-economic background they're from, they should have the opportunity to travel abroad. Yes, that study abroad is such a great opportunity.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

So that was kind of like a weight off of my chest. I felt like it was an opportunity for me, that I can really travel abroad. Another part of, I think, studying abroad was just visiting a new place.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I really was interested in- I have a little bit of a sociology background, so I knew that I always wanted to see the world, what was outside, especially of California, outside of the US. I didn't necessarily know at that time where the Netherlands was.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

So where is it?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Where is it, right?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

For those of us who have not been there.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

It's actually the northwestern part of Europe. It's kind of at the top. It was actually quite an experience getting here and realizing, wow, this is really a different part of the world. But yeah, I really just saw that there was opportunity. And I thought, okay, I'm just gonna go ahead and do it. I'm so glad I did, because it literally changed my life.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I want you to say a little bit more about- I guess this is what I wanted you to talk about is- that study abroad experience, and how it did change your life. You mentioned that there was funding, so that's amazing. There are- I am aware now, on the other side of things. When I was an undergrad, I didn't know that you could study abroad and get financial aid or scholarships, things like that. I was under the impression that there were too many cons for me. It was like, it would be too expensive, or it would delay my graduation timeline, or it's too scary. I'll be on my own, maybe it would be a risk to my safety.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Now, I know better, It's actually quite the opposite. A lot of European countries actually have lower costs than the US. A lot of European countries are actually- this is not to say of every single country out in the world, if you study abroad.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

In your case, you did go to a European country. I live in a European country too- the lower cost of living, and a lot of areas are safer- comparatively speaking, if you look at the crime rates- than the US. So all these things, these myths that I had- actually, we can debunk them in this case and your case, too. But I'm wondering if you could share a little bit more about maybe details about your experience. What were the things that you learned? What were the benefits? What were the advantages, and also probably disadvantages or challenges or things that you learned, like learning lessons, from your experience?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah. There were definitely a lot of positive experiences. I mean, I did have culture shock when I came here, because it's just, it's different than the US in terms of what the population looks like here. There are communities who are marginalized here, and that also may look different from the US. That was kind of an eye opener for me to see, especially learning about the colonization history of the Netherlands. The Netherlands has a deep colonial history

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

In terms of making it a global colonial project to colonize different parts of the world. And really understanding their trajectories- how did those communities come back to the Netherlands? How did they end up here? Which, you know, it makes sense, because if you were there, they're gonna come here. It also helped me see a different way of life, I think, because I always thought that you always had to have a car to get somewhere, which is- California is a very car heavy culture.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

In the Netherlands, I saw that public transportation actually is a huge way to get around, whether it's trams or metros or biking. I feel like that is- in comparison to California, in my experience, because I was also a commuter student. That was very difficult for me to also experience while I was in undergrad. I didn't always feel safe when I was riding the bus, and I know that here, in the Netherlands, it's definitely- since it's so common, and people take the bus, the tram, the metro, all the time, it's relatively safe. I feel like I can always get from point A to point B without too many crazy stories happening on the bus.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. I mean, I guess that could be an advantage.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, it's definitely an advantage.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Just the accessibility of public transit and learning a new way of life in terms of- I don't know what the pacing is like. But in my experience, living in Portugal, people are a lot more like down to earth- not so much in a rush.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, I cannot stress that enough. You know, the vacation culture here is real. People really take their holidays seriously.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, I've been shamed by my Portuguese teacher, like you need to take time off.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yes, yes. And I think that's really important, because in the US, I feel like the US really stresses grinding culture.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Like if you're not grinding nonstop, you're not living out your full potential. But I think it is crucial, it is important that you take time off. Because if you don't take time to heal from all the stressors in life, torecharge, re-energize yourself and then come back to work, you're just gonna burn out. It's just, it's real. That's also a positive that I've noticed here, that life is a little bit more at a manageable pace I think, than in the US.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

And a lot of things close early in the Netherlands. I know a lot of people back home, when I tell them, stores closed around six. They're like, what? How could stores close at six? There's 24 hour stores in the US, and I didn't see that as an issue until I got here. And I thought, wow, people really need to go home to their families at some point. It's just normal, it's natural. It should be that way. So it really did shift my perspective on working nonstop, and in many ways, seeing how toxic that can be for ourselves, for our bodies, for our communities.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

It's really hard to see outside of it when you're there, when you're living it.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Actually, one of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on the podcast is to introduce another possibility to my listeners, who are overwhelmingly undergrads who are seeking to apply to grad school, and current early grad- some of the younger graduate students. So they're still thinking about what they're going to do with their lives, and what career path they're gonna go on. In your case, you have changed your lifestyle, your location, even your career path. Hopefully, we'll get into a little bit more about how you got into your DEI work.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I know the other thing that comes up with studying abroad, but then also moving abroad- and I don't know if you started mentioning them. But from an outsider's perspective, especially on social media, on Instagram, there's a romanticized view about what it's like being abroad. Like oh, it's so pretty. It's so nice, and everything seems so great. But there are also challenges, especially- well, if you're studying abroad, everything's just a shock. But then if you're moving abroad, all of a sudden, you go from the shock to becoming an immigrant. I wanted to get your thoughts on your experience and knowledge of some of the challenges- maybe your study abroad challenges, and then we can transition to talking about your life actually moving to the Netherlands.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, so I think challenges from as a student-

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Or maybe it was just really great.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

It was just a great experience. But I would say learning the language, because anywhere you live, even if it's for a short period of time- because I was doing the program for about six weeks. I still had to kind of familiarize myself with the Dutch language, whether it was reading it, or hearing it, or speaking it. I also had to learn a little bit to be able to adapt to my surroundings. You know, it's just kind of a survival skill, I think, also as a student of color, being able to be resilient and code switch, because we know that we're naturally good at that.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

We have to be able to communicate across audiences and across different cultures. So I think that was a challenge. But it also helped me grow, and in many ways, prepared me for what I could expect when I actually moved here. I think that was my biggest challenge. And also just kind of learning about the different norms and the different values in the Netherlands. That kind of surprised me too. In many ways, it was challenging as well.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Can you give an example of what you mean by that? Like what is one example of different norms?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, I think- for example, the student life. The Dutch students, the typical Dutch students, will have student associations, but they'll go out and drink together. I'm like, oh, that's not a, like, academically. I'm like, in the US- I mean, in my experience- it was a little bit more like there would be parties or things like gatherings, social gatherings, outside, not necessarily through academia. But this was through academia. It was kind of like- that's really interesting. I don't know if I would see that in the US in that way.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Or in professional settings, people will go to what they call Bortles- actually kind of like a drinking get together outside of work. It's with all your colleagues, and you'll go ahead and go drink together. But that's also very exclusive to certain populations. Because there is a large Muslim community in the Netherlands, and that's oftentimes overlooked, even though they make up a huge population in the Netherlands.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, wow. See, that's something that I didn't know.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah. That was also a shock to me, because you think - oh, a bortle would be very inclusive, and be calling in people. But it's actually making people feel excluded from those type of activities, maybe that also want to be in social gatherings, but not necessarily involving things that might not necessarily align with their beliefs.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's right, yeah. I wanted to hear also about- so you went from studying abroad to moving abroad. How did you get to that point? Because so many people who I know who have studied abroad, they have not moved. Maybe they continue to travel, but they don't decide, all of a sudden, to completely move their life to another country. So can you tell us a little bit more about your decision? What went into it and why the Netherlands? You know, because you could have moved to a lot of other places.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

You know, I actually really liked the Netherlands when I came as a student. And I thought, wow, can I really see myself living here someday? My first initial thought was- and I remember I spoke to you about this Yvette in an earlier conversation- that it's kind of a taboo for mujeres in Mexican culture to leave their family.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh my gosh, yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

It's kind of a taboo, and it's kind of unspoken. But you just know you shouldn't do it. You feel some kind of pressure. And I felt like if I moved away, this would be so far from my family. And I was starting to get a lot of that guilt, that daughter guilt.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

That- oh, man. If I moved away so far, this would really impact my parents. But then I thought, okay, maybe I won't move. But then I realized that that's also closing off opportunities for me, if that's something that I wanted to do. And I felt like studying here also opened up the opportunities in terms of networking. I was able to meet so many different people.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I decided to move here actually because I met my partner during an exchange. We became best friends ever since that exchange, and we decided not to lose contact. I went back to the US. We continued a long distance relationship, and then we decided to start a family. That's when my little girl comes into play.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Aw.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, we decided- how were we going to navigate a transnational family? You know, because my husband- who identifies as Indo- Caribbean, Surinamese- and I identify as Chicana. Where are we going to live? Where are we going to raise our child? That became a real conversation for us. We thought, you know what? What are the immigration policies in the United States? What are we looking at? And how does that look in the Netherlands?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

It was something that we really had to talk about and work through. And we ended up deciding for the Netherlands because the residency process was much shorter in comparison to the US. We also mentioned this earlier- in a different conversation- that the US doesn't really have a comprehensive pathway to citizenship.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

That's also one of the factors why we decided to move to the Netherlands, because our main priority was family unification. We wanted to unite our family and keep each other together, because we know what family separation looks like firsthand in the US.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

And that is just tragic. I just know that. I've seen it firsthand in my communities, and so I didn't want that for our family. So we really had to make a choice. And I had to- I talked with my parents, which was also very difficult to do. My husband and I talked with them, and we explained to them. You know, it was very difficult for them, because I'm pretty sure they didn't want their daughter to leave and their grandchild and their son in law.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

It's hard to have family abroad. Many of us experience it, if we have family in Mexico or in different parts of the world. You wish you can be with that family. You wish you can spend time together, convivir. But sometimes that's not really an option.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I will say that we have enough privilege to be able to travel abroad and be able to come back as well. That also is an option for us, which I know many people don't have. So I don't take that for granted and I feel truly blessed to have that opportunity.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

So yeah, I moved to the Netherlands. I've been living here for three and a half years. We decided to start building a life here. But I will say that we were very fortunate to have many resources. Also because my husband was born in the Netherlands, so he knows the system. He was able to do support me a lot in my transition here. His family, who is also my family, helped me transition and made that experience a lot more smoother than it would have been if I had just moved here without any connections. I can imagine. I would have done it, but it would have been much more difficult, I think. Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I can relate, because we did move sight unseen, with no connections here. And we have gone through our fair share of bureaucratic struggles. But we're navigating it and like you said- you're like, oh, we're privileged enough. I feel like my educational privilege comes to play, where even though I don't know the language, I'm learning it. I can navigate bureaucracy to some extent in a way that we've been okay.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But I appreciate you actually being open and honest about what it's like- one, having a difficult conversation with your parents. What parent wants to have their child move to another country? I can't even imagine my own babies moving away from me. And you know, I had to have a similar conversation with my own mom. It's not something that anybody is excited about, per se, because they love you. They want you close to them.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But then at the same time, you really do get to see who's there to support you, who's going to have your back, even if it's something that doesn't make them one hundred percent happy. They want to be there for you and support you. Also the parallels too, in living abroad and having transnational family, and then getting to understand a little bit more the experiences of our own parents, who may have family members who are also away from each other.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

In my case, my mom and her sister, and some of her tias, tios- all folks who are still in Mexico. Then seeing how they get together once a year and really bond during that time. So it's not easy, but it's a possibility. If it's something that I think that if someone is drawn to, they should know that they have this option to be able to move abroad. And what's the worst that can happen?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

People would always ask me- one, why do you want to move abroad? And then two- another question was like, why, how and then- but what about family? Then what if you don't like it? And I would always say, well, if I don't like it, I can just move back.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right, you can always move back.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I know it's not as simple in your case

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Because your priority is family unification. But it's true. What's the worst that can happen? You go back to square one. You go back to where you were before, and you go back with more information. You don't ever start from scratch. You go back having learned what you learned from that experience.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Also, hearing you talk about your experience, hearing you talk about the fact that you're from California, the fact that you are a Chicana, I'm wondering how moving abroad and living there enough for a couple of years, how it's impacted your identity. How it's impacted your mothering. You mentioned a little bit about this.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But I'm just curious, because it can be hard to build community abroad. I know firsthand, it's hard to have a multiracial or mixed race family, multicultural, whatever you want to call it. It's just like blending a lot of different cultures and languages and nationalities too. So I'm curious how that has impacted your identity, or your identities- the different roles that you carry. You mentioned being a mama. You also mentioned being an hermana, hija- all the different roles in your life.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, definitely. It's changed even the way that I see myself, because I think in California, I was very comfortable in my community, amongst students as well. I feel like I built a lot of support. And I think my support network was there at UCLA with other students who also identified as Latino or Chicano, Chicana, Chicanx. I feel like those were my people.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

You know, I felt really close with them. And then having to find, reimagine what community looks like for me here now. Because I will say that there aren't a lot of Chicanas here.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

So yeah, I think it was really just identifying with a common struggle of marginalized folks here, and what that means to them. In some way or form, I related to their stories. Whether it was being first generation, because there's a lot of first generation students here. There's a lot of low income community families from here. You know, the struggle might be different. But there's a lot of similarities still.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

And I think that that speaks across different communities across the world. I think I was able to really find community with first generation students. Also students of color who have family with immigration background. That also resonated with me. Also being involved as a student within organizations, being connected to organizations who were involved with access, and equity work, diversity and inclusion. That really opened up the doors for me.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Now actually, that I live in the Netherlands, I was able to continue those connections and maintain a relationship with some organizations that I met while I was studying here as a student. Actually, the organization that I work for, it's a nonprofit organization. It's called ECHO, and they focus on diversity policy, whether that's in higher education, in the ministry, like the government, and just different organizations as well. They focus a lot on access and outreach work.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

We provide different services as well as have different programs that help also first generation students or students with migration background to also have opportunities within the labor market. Because there there is a lot of discrimination in the Netherlands in the labor market, as well as maybe not necessarily having the same opportunities in education as well. So that kind of spoke to me, because I also feel like as a transfer student as well- I am a transfer student. I transferred from a community college then to UCLA. I identified with a lot of struggles. And even now, as a person who was a non- Dutch citizen living in the Netherlands, that also meant something to me.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I've always known that I wanted to be a working mom. So I wanted to make sure that I had a network that could support me in that, because I feel like even if you have access, if there's no support, it's kind of hard to make it work. I wanted to make sure that that I did surround myself and I had a good network that could help me continue to thrive, even in those spaces that I felt were not necessarily meant for me as well.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

That was also an eye opening moment for me as well, because I realized that my narrative was also very particular. And it was very unique, in the sense that, you know, there aren't a lot of Chicanas in the Netherlands, who come from California, who studied at UCLA, and are also a mom. I had these different parts of me that made up who I am, that aren't really that common in the Netherlands. So I thought, in many ways, this is a- how would I say that?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Like a rarity?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, it's very empowering, I would say.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

It's empowering, because I feel like the organization could really benefit from my lived experiences and my knowledges that I bring with me. They were very eager to work with me- the organization, ECHO. They reached out to me, and they offered me a position. And at first, I joined one of their programs, because I thought I was having a little bit of impostor syndrome. I was like, maybe I'm not cut out for this job, or maybe I'm not qualified enough, because I don't speak Dutch, which is oftentimes a huge requirement for a lot of jobs. So I thought, oh, maybe they're not gonna see me as qualified enough.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

But then I realized, I bring much more to the table, you know. I'm not only this non- Dutch speaking person. I'm also bilingual. I speak Spanish. I speak English, which many people speak here as well. I thought, you know, I have a lot of good qualities, that I do qualify for a good position. So I joined one of their mentoring programs to kind of build up my experience and build up my professional experience, because I also was out of the workforce for quite a bit because I was raising my daughter.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

But once she was old enough, I knew that I wanted to go back. So they offered me a position, and so I was actually working on the mentoring program while I was a mentee. That was also a really unique experience, to kind of do the back end of the programming while I was actually still part of the program. Really, that was such a good experience, because it not only built my network, but I was also able to kind of ground myself in the labor market, and look at that from firsthand perspective. What does that look like? And see myself transitioning from a mentee, also into my role as a program officer.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I really like hearing you talk about- I'm glad that you got to talking about your work, your DEI work in the Netherlands. Because I think that in talking about your experience, you're already debunking some myths, particularly around the difficulties in getting jobs, if it's even possible to get jobs abroad. What types of jobs are available? I know that that's one of the questions I get a lot from folks who are curious about moving abroad is, well, what do you do? How do you make a living? Are there jobs there?

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's very specific to the country, and even the city within that country. But you are showing us that there are opportunities out there and there are places, there are nonprofits, companies, places that would value our knowledge, our experience, even if it seems kind of out of left field. Like wait, Chicana from California? They want to hear from me?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But then remembering everything that we come and bring to the table.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Even you mentioning the bilingualism, and how- actually, I think it's even more of a benefit here. At least from my experience, I have found that has been a great benefit- to be bilingual. Because you never know who's going to know your other language.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Right.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I have had more opportunities to practice my Spanish here than I do when I'm in the US. So I think that's really interesting, too. And that it's more the norm, actually, to be bilingual, trilingual, multilingual in other countries.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, multilingual. I realized that here as well. It also helped that the language that I brought with me in my social justice toolkit was also very useful for me. Because in the Netherlands, they're a little behind in terms of social justice work, I will say.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh I think a lot of places are, especially- I'm like, we're in colonizer territory. So we can't deny that.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Oh, we are. But I think that there is the shift now, especially because of Black Lives Matter movement. You know, when that happened, a lot of institutions and a lot of organizations and companies really started to take this seriously, and were like, okay. We need to do something about this. Unfortunately, in the Netherlands, the language just isn't there in terms of talking about equity, talking about diversity and inclusion and social justice.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I feel like the Netherlands' form of social justice language is kind of within diversity and inclusion frameworks. And I think that we can go beyond that a little more. We can go beyond that a lot more. So the language, I think, that I also brought with me, is also very useful in my job and what I do, because I'm able to reframe things and kind of offer a different perspective that people might not have thought of. And the kind of access work actually, the organization that I work for, has the partnership with UCLA. They've been partners with- I believe, CCCP for a long time.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

For folks who don't know, what CCCP, it's the community college partnerships at UCLA. Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yes, correct. So this kind of notion that there is access and support for students- I feel like ECHO, they really wanted to borrow that kind of concept and kind of translate that into the Dutch context, to see what that could mean for people here, for students to have access and also feel supported within their studies. And professionally as well, beyond beyond academia, because hopefully, once you graduate, you want to get a job. So you want to make sure that you're also connecting, and having networks beyond academia.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

So I think that the work that ECHO does is so important for helping students, especially students of color, that might not necessarily have access to so many different networks, or job opportunities or internships. There's a lot out there, and I think that when you make that accessible to students, you really see the potential. You see the impact. I think my passion really stemmed from that kind of initiative work that was being done at UCLA. I was really- I was part of Transfer Raza Day, organizing that for incoming transfers. Because I was part of it myself. Then the following year, I thought, it was so impactful for me. I want to do this for other students who are also struggling.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Because we all know that it's not an individual journey when a student transfers to a university. Their family is also transferring with them.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

They bring their whole communities with them. It's so important, I think, that parents are also-and families are- brought into this kind of transfer experience with the student, because it's a whole different world. And if you don't know necessarily how to navigate that, it can be a challenge. I think if you're doing your best to try to help mitigate that, or help make that transition smoother, you really do see that students feel, they feel recognized.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

And they feel celebrated, because, you know, their families are also being taken into account, but also their culture as well. You just feel so safe when your culture is also being represented. You feel some kind of pride also, because you feel like, yeah, there is space for me. I do belong here. And I think that ECHO is really trying to do that work here, as well. So I feel like my passion with doing kind of hands on access work really ties in with my role now.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

What you're reminding me of is that sometimes some of our experiences, some of our knowledge, some of our language, resonates across borders, resonates across different ethnicities, nationalities, identities. And that actually reminds me of back in the day, teaching the transfer summer program and having exchange students- and teaching Borderlands and teaching Chicana feminism, and teaching about this feeling of like, being from neither here, neither there.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Hearing from folks saying, I can relate to that. I have never really like fit in, or my parents are immigrants in this country. And it's just really interesting to me to know that you never know. Basically, if you open yourself up to opportunities, you never know who might be relating to you. Even with this podcast, for instance, I have listeners. I have a good set of population that listens from India and from South Africa, and I don't know who they are. If you're listening, send me a message.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

But I get the statistics and the numbers. I would never guess that those would be the folks listening. I would assume that it would be that the majority is in the US. But you never know how far and wide your message, your knowledge, your experience will reach people. And you're just a testament to that, that your work doesn't necessarily - and if you wanted to stay in your cit, in your community. It's very meaningful. It's very powerful. Then at the same time, if you have the desire to go somewhere else, or do something wider, or expand the capacity of where your work kind of goes. It's there, the possibility is there.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, definitely. I think this is the reason why I feel so compelled to do these kinds of talks and have these conversations, because I know there's so many people that, even just hearing this can inspire them. You know, maybe it's kind of a thought they had in the back of their mind and didn't really want to go forward with it. But this is real, and you can do it. I think it is possible. There are people out there willing to help as well. I think that that's also important.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I think this is a perfect segue to our next question- and we're getting close to wrapping up. So I'm wondering, for anybody out there who might have this inclination of wanting to study abroad, wanting to travel, wanting to get out of the comfort zone, maybe even one day moving abroad, what advice would you give to fellow first gen, students of color, who are thinking about and it's still this big, lofty dream? Sometimes it can feel like out of our reach, because it's this big dream that we've never done before.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I would say do it. I would just say do it. I can't stress this enough. Do it. Go ahead. Study abroad. I think it's such a great opportunity. If you can, try to look for funding. Try to look for programs that already have funding in there, so that you don't have to spend so much. You can just probably save a little bit, and then use your money on what you need to, what you want to buy. I actually want to share tha just recently- I think in June, at the end of June. I co-organized a summer program, and it was an exchange program as well, for the- I'm not sure if you are familiar with COE, the Council for Opportunity in Education.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yes, I worked with them when I was working for McNair. Yes.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Okay, yay, so great. So ECHO actually has a longtime partnership with COE.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Oh, wow.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, they actually- which I was also part of EOPs, which is also part of-

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

A TRIO program?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, the TRIO programs. I'm a strong believer in this and I am an example of what comes out of studying abroad, and having those student support services available to you. I think it would have changed my experience if I didn't have that kind of support. But we were able to organize a summer school for the students- and they were different students from different parts of the US as well. They had various study backgrounds as well, which was also good to see.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

There was some students in university level, who already knew what they wanted to do in life. And there were also students who were in community college.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Wow.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

That were, you know, maybe not so sure what they wanted to do, or what they wanted to study. It was so impactful to do that program, because they also got to see firsthand experience what it was like to be in the Netherlands. Some of them had never even traveled abroad before, and they were like, wow. This really opens up a whole new world to me. I want to go, I want to travel again. I want to do it more. Some of them actually want to come back to the Netherlands, because they loved it so much.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

And they were also able to build their network. I also offered them, you know, if you ever need any support. I might be a little bit far, but you can definitely reach out to me online. I always make time. I feel like they also felt supported in that way. Even after the program ended, some of the students, they reached out to me. One of them said, I actually put you as a contact person for a job opportunity that I applied for. And I was like, great. That's what I'm here for, you know. I want to hear those kinds of stories.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I want to hear that you come, you experience this, and you learn about a different society, and maybe a different perspective and life that you didn't necessarily know. And take whatever you learned back home with you- because they also were in leadership roles at their colleges or universities. A lot of what they learned here, it was a lot of first time experiences. Many of them didn't know there'd colonial history of the Netherlands, and they were just shocked, shocked that that was actually real. And the impact- we still see it today. That also has shaped society.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

They were also able to see different ways of life, and also meet different people from different cultural backgrounds, that they might not necessarily ever get to meet if they were only in the US. So I feel like it's such a good experience to be able to have that transnational exchange as well.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

You know, you really do make more than just connections. You make friendships. I think I am a strong believer in joining student exchange programs, and being part of that. And also giving access to low income students who really can benefit, because they bring- they already brought their own talents with them. They brought their own knowledges with them. Now it was just for them to see what they could do with that, with all of what they bring here in the Netherlands. It was really beautiful to see. It was a very, very, very fruitful program.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That's amazing. It actually brings to mind two things for me, you saying that. The first- I can't help but giggle, because when I worked for McNair, I remember we encouraged students to apply to summer research programs. And one student decided that he wanted to apply to programs abroad. His dream was to go to Japan. He loved japan, Japanese culture, Japanese food, anime, all that stuff. And he went through the process of applying. I don't know that he realized that it was actually going to happen. Then when he got in and he got a scholarship, I remember him telling us, this is gonna be my first flight.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I love it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

So his first flight was- I think it was a direct flight or something like that. It was like fourteen, eighteen hours. I don't know how many hours. It's very long.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah it's long. It's like sixteen hours.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I think that that must have been it. But I remember it was very long. And just the nerves, the anxiety, the excitement. Then he did it, came back, changed his life. I know it definitely helped him with his grad school application process. He made friends. He got a letter of rec from one of the professors that he worked with over there. I'm sure he's probably gone back since then. So that one thing completely opened different doors changed his life. It was very scary. Your first flight, for it to be that long.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, I can imagine.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

I don't blame him. But it's just wow. Again, you never know what might come out of it.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

You never know, you never know.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Yeah. And then for me, I didn't get to study abroad. I wish that I had. It is one of my undergrad regrets. But I did get to conduct research, do fieldwork and complete an internship in Mexico, in Chiapas, when I was a grad student. That completely changed my life. In fact, the person that I worked with and for is still one of my closest friends. She's a theatre director, Columbiana from the Bronx, I think. She's from New York, Columbiana.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Okay, she's from New York.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

She's got that accent, that's why.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Okay, okay.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

She's still a very close friend of mine. In fact, she's actually moving here to Portugal. So it's just wild, the connections that you might make across the years just from meeting people, and having this international experience. So I can only echo everything that you said about how life changing it is for a lot of us to have these experiences, and that we all deserve to have access to this.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Any last words of advice or any last closing words? If not, I would love for you to tell us- if anybody wants to be in touch, connect, follow. What's the best way for them to reach you?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, I guess the best way would be- maybe phone number won't be as easy, because it is international number. But yeah, I'm always open for if anybody would like to email me. They can email me at Laura@ECHO-net.nl.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

And we can add that to the shownotes.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, we'll go ahead and add it.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

That way, folks can copy paste from there. And I think you might be on LinkedIn, is that right?

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

I am. I am also on LinkedIn. Yeah, you can look for me under Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh as well.

Dra. Yvette Martinez-Vu

Okay, great. Well, thank you so much Laura, for sharing your experience and knowledge with us. It was just really wonderful to hear everything about study abroad, about moving abroad and about the different kinds of benefits and challenges that come with them. Hopefully some folks will be motivated to change their lives too.

Laura Quintero-Soekarnsingh

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity. And I look forward to hearing from anybody if they'd like to reach out. I'm more than happy to continue a conversation.