145: Taking a Leave of Absence as a Survivor in Grad School with Ana Ramirez

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome back, everyone, to the Grad School Femtoring podcast. I am feeling so grateful and so humbled, because today we have an episode all about taking a leave of absence as a survivor in grad school. Our special guest is Ana Ramirez. She is a socio-cultural anthropology PhD student at UNC Chapel Hill. Her work focuses on Indigenous women and gender based violence, trauma, community and families and healing. Ana is interested in an activist, community based approach to research that's inspired by a Black feminist ethos, and indigenous decolonial thinking. Ooh, I want to snap at that.

Ana Ramirez

I'll snap with you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And Ana is also currently taking a leave of absence, exploring different career paths and hiking with friends and family in her free time. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, and I'm so happy to have you.

Ana Ramirez

Likewise, it's such a pleasure to be here. I've listened to your episodes. I'm so happy to be doing this with you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm glad to hear that. So since you've listened, you know typically I ask folks to get us started by sharing a little bit more about yourself, your background, your backstory, anything you're comfortable sharing. And what led you to pursuing a PhD program in anthropology of all fields? From there, we can see how we can go into the the topic for today.

Ana Ramirez

Sure thing. So I identify as an indigenous woman, and particularly Maya-Akateka. And community has always been a super big part of my growing up, like seeing my dad very involved. I didn't always really embrace my Indigenous identity until my latter years in high school. I think it really changed whenever I met a lot of other Indigenous women who had similar aspirations to myself. I felt like I could see myself and I could see- I felt like power numbers. The context of it is I grew up in rural North Carolina, predominantly white, with a small Indigenous community around me.

Ana Ramirez

I ended up going to Brown University for undergrad, and through a professor of mine that I really clicked with, he told me about the Mellon Mays undergraduate fellowship. So I got really involved. I applied and I got involved. They're kind of like a pipeline program for students to basically start doing graduate level research and get into PhD programs. I was drawn to anthropology from the beginning, partly because I felt like anthropologists were the only ones initially who wrote about Maya peoples from Guatemala. I felt like I never saw anything about people like myself written in books. I felt like that was so appealing to me. So basically, my time doing undergraduate research, I really went all in, in learning more about what's been written about my peoples, what does that look like.

Ana Ramirez

Around the same time, I was also really involved with a nonprofit off campus. They worked with a lot of actually Maya immigrants, so I felt like it was a really great way for me to have community. They taught a lot of English, so English for Speakers of Other Languages, and they used participatory education, so the popular education. I felt like it started planting the seeds of like, how do you do community informed research? What does that look like? I felt like that was what I was really drawn to. And there's a strain within anthropology called activist anthropology, that's very community informed and that draws from a Black feminist ethos that uses decolonial thinking. I was like, okay, cool. I finally found a place where I feel like- I found my discipline, but I feel like I found a place within that discipline where I feel like, I can see myself here. I can see myself growing here.

Ana Ramirez

I took about a couple of years of time off, between undergrad and grad school. That was just a time of figuring out a couple of things in life. I just wasn't sure if I was ready to commit to a PhD program, and I had always gotten the feedback that it's helpful to do a gap year or two before you go into your PhD program to have some experience under your belt, especially since you'll be doing field work. So it was just an opportunity to do a couple of different things. By the time I got ready to apply, I looked for scholars who had that kind of activist approach to research. That's kind of how I came across my advisor, and I ended up going to UNC Chapel Hill.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Great. Wow, I didn't realize that you're a Mellon fellow. We have that connection.

Ana Ramirez

Oh, you're also a Mellon?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah, yeah. I was part of the first cohort at UCLA, and somehow I've had several guests unintentionally be Mellon fellows. After the episode, I'll tell you who they are. But yeah, it's so interesting to hear kind of your path and the fact that you did take a gap year. I know that wasn't encouraged for me when I was in the program, because the emphasis was really to go straight into graduate school. Then now you're in a doctoral program, and you're also taking a leave of absence.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I wanted to segue into that topic, just because I have had several people reach out to me to ask me about that and that's actually not something that I have direct experience with. I have experience with requesting accommodations, things like that, but not taking a leave of absence, per se. And so I wanted to- maybe you can tell us a little bit more like, what is a leave of absence? And whatever you are comfortable sharing about what led you to take a leave of absence, and then we can continue on with with that conversation from there.

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, so a leave of absence, at least at my institution, it's basically like a formal permission from the university to take time off. That can be either six months, up to 12 months. I'm currently on a year leave of absence, so it's 12 months. It started August of last year, and it ends in July, so just before. During that time period, you still have access to the institution and library if you want, but you don't have to do anything related to your program, like working on your thesis or working on a comprehensive exams. It's kind of like a pause. I left as a third year, and this would have been my fourth year, but whenever I return, it's going to be considered my fourth year. So it's just like a timeout in a way.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So it works as a pause you're saying?

Ana Ramirez

Yeah. I felt like for me, there was many reasons why I took a leave of absence. I think one of them definitely was reassessing, what are my life and career goals? Looking back into my why, in terms of why was I doing this PhD? And then also, most importantly, I think it was also for mental health reasons. I was sexually assaulted by someone that I considered a mentor, and it became a Title IX case. I felt like what happened after is it just started taking a toll on me in my coursework. I had to take three incompletes for courses that I was taking, and I felt like I was just falling behind. After something like that happens, it's hard to focus, and put your foot forward on coursework and things. It's hard to prioritize that anymore.

Ana Ramirez

I felt like whenever I was contemplating doing the leave, I was figuring out when to strategically do this, how to do this. I know that the leave was deciding if I want to continue with my PhD or not. So I decided to take the leave right after I finished defending my Master's thesis, because I didn't come in with a Master's whenever I entered my PhD. I wanted the opportunity that if I decide to leave, and I know I can leave and not feel like I kind of didn't get anything out of it. I felt like it's gonna help me be at peace. But I also know if I decided to return I'm gonna start, right kind of basically working on my comprehensive exams. I was sure of the thesis that I was writing, that it was pulling on the literature that I wanted to do for my comprehensive exams and what I want to use.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm sorry, I wanted to ask. Well, first of all, I'm really sorry that you went through that. But I also wanted to ask, how did you find out about the leave of absence as an option? Because I think that for a lot of folks, if they go through an experience like that, right away, they might think straight- either we keep going, or we quit altogether. Move on to something else. Was this something that you received support through someone else and they offer that option? Or you just kind of looked it up yourself? How did you learn more about this, about the leave of absence as an option for you?

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, that's a great question. I felt like I didn't know that was an option. I didn't know anybody before me in my program or around me who ever took a leave of absence. And I confided in someone who worked at the department of Diversity and Student Success, and I just kind of mentioned, you know, I think I have to quit. I just mentioned I have three completes, and I feel like I can't see myself going on. It's taking a toll on me and my mind, you know.

Ana Ramirez

She mentioned, did you know leave of absences are a thing? Do you know that was an option? I was like, what is that? She just explained that, basically, if there's extenuating circumstances, and it doesn't have to be as extenuating as my circumstances, but it can be something like other mental health reasons, or someone you have to tend to in your family and you have to take time off. It can be different reasons. And the university, my university at least, is very flexible in giving students leaves of absence. After I took a leave of absence, I've had a couple of students in my department take leaves, because they had other situations that they needed to attend to.

Ana Ramirez

So after she mentioned that, it felt like that's kind of the path I wanted to take. Just because at that point, I wasn't ready to have a very black and white, yes or no, in terms of- do I want to continue, or do I want to drop out? And I felt like at the other side of things, part of me wanted to take the time to really reassess- do I want to do this PhD program? I felt like I didn't want to give all the power to the person who hurt me. I felt like I wanted to feel like I was at a place where I was healed enough, or I was well enough to really think- how can the PhD help me or not in my career goals, or in my life goals?

Ana Ramirez

I felt like the only way I was really able to answer that question is if I'm able to put a pause around all the noise around me, and the expectations of my department and of my advisors and be like, what are my goals? What are the things that I want? Since then, I felt like the leave has been really helpful in making things very clear. I am still not at a decision point, but I have an idea of where it's gonna lean. But I feel like it was helpful for me to feel like I was coming from a place that felt more like I had that autonomy, like I had that power in my hands. I felt like I was taking something back. And I felt like it was very much a good option for me to think clearly and to make a decision that's better for me.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm glad that you mentioned that it was someone that told you about this as an option, because again, I think a lot of folks don't realize that this is an option at every institution. It just may look differently in terms of the minor details, the policies. But also, I'm thinking from the perspective of a student who might be debating this and might have a lot of questions.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So if I were a student, and I wanted to take a leave of absence, my question to you would be, under what circumstances can people take a leave of absence, where it's considered a justifiable reason? What is the actual process like? Do they require a lot of paperwork? Because I know- this is thinking about something else, but when you request accommodations, you have to have a medical note, you have to have things like that to support that.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And then, is there anything that you're cut off from, in terms of resources and things like that, that maybe might make a student rethink taking a leave of absence? I'm thinking, I myself, I would be worried what if they no longer provide me with health care? Or because I'm taking a leave of absence, maybe I'm not going to be receiving a stipend for the year that I'm taking a leave of absence. Or what else? There's just so many things. If I live in graduate student housing, or family housing or whatever, university housing, are they going to kick me out for those twelve months?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I know you might not have the answers to all these questions. Again, it's very university specific. But I would love to know, just the answers that you know- at least in your experience, and from your university- what are some of the things that you had to plan for in advance? Like, let's say health insurance, or stipend wise, or anything else in terms of the actual process of applying.

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because I honestly planned for my leave of absence almost a year and a half in advance.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, wow. I had no idea. I'm glad I asked too. What if someone wants to do it, and they're like, I want to do it now?

Ana Ramirez

I wanted to, and I felt like I could have. But I felt like the reason why I waited so long was partly because I wanted to have my masters done. I wanted a good stopping point. I felt like I wanted to be in a good stopping point, that if I decide to leave, that I could leave and be at peace. But if I decide to return, then I know where to pick up. But I felt like that was a decision for myself, and I think other people- depending on their circumstances, and how extenuating they are- it can be more pressing, and that makes total sense.

Ana Ramirez

With that, there's other tricky things also. Like when it came to picking my committee members for my thesis, I was careful. I didn't share that I was going on a leave until after I defended my thesis and it passed, just because I know that, at least in my department, professors are known to have different reactions when students leave the program- temporarily or completely. And I just didn't want that to be held against me. They were all supportive.

Ana Ramirez

But with taking a leave of absence, there's not that much paperwork. It's honestly just a couple of forms. Basically, it's just writing-it doesn't have to be too in detail, but what are the reasons, circumstances in which you want to leave? I didn't go that much into detail. I felt like with a couple of trusted- like my advisors, or certain people, like the my chair of my department who had to sign off- I did. And people were pretty supportive. It's just getting basically the approval of the chair of my department, and also my advisor, to sign off. So I had to be sure that was kind of known.

Ana Ramirez

Then I just had to- because I had a couple of fellowships, like I had a fellowship at my university, so I had to let them know. I also received the Ford pre doctoral during my first year, so I also had to kind of let them know that I'll be taking this time off. In some ways, it's just kind of looking at where it is that you're getting your money in some ways for your grad student stipend, and making sure that those people know.

Ana Ramirez

But on a leave, at least for me, I'm not receiving my stipend. That also means I'm not receiving health care. Because I knew, planning a year and a half in advance, I kind of tried to save some of my grad student stipend money, just be very kind of careful with how I was spending. Just so that way, I had some money to kind of help me to transition from being in my program to my leave.

Ana Ramirez

Almost immediately, that's kind of when I started career planning, just kind of started connecting with folks at the Career Center at my university, to just kind of begin to get that other part of my leave. Like reassessing, what are my career and life goals as well. But I don't think it has to take as long as it took for me, like about a year and a half. Like I said, it took that mostly because I wanted to have my Master's before I went on leave. That's kind of where the year came from. But I helped a friend. She had her own reasons, and I think she went on leave about a month before. Like she talked to me and a month later, she was on leave. So I know it can be varied. But that's kind of how it was for me.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

It sounds like it can be a straightforward process. I didn't hear you say that you needed any supporting documentation from a doctor, or a therapist, or anything like that, to again, quote unquote, justify. I do quotes, because I know that can be problematic- even having to get documentation, because who has access to that, to doctors, and sometimes doctors don't believe you, etc. But I'm glad that it was you submitted the paperwork, you needed to get someone to sign off on it. Then it's really just a matter of the planning. You know, planning for not having access to healthcare, or a stipend- but that would be similar if you left the program altogether. You would stop, figure out, how do I pay my bills? How do I access health care? But it's just doing that for that pause, for the period of your pause.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And you took advantage of that, or you've been taking advantage of that time by focusing on your career planning. You mentioned some of the maybe tricky things about going through the process of applying and getting the leave, of making it official. Now, what have been some of the things that you've gained during this leave of absence? What are some things that you've learned? I'm trying to think of the benefits of taking a leave of absence, like why might someone consider it?

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, definitely. I feel like I'm in a different place than I was before I went on leave. You know, it hasn't been even a year and I felt like I was is running on empty. I just felt like, if I would continue, I felt like this could become like chronic health problems. You know, like this PTSD isn't gonna go away, this back problems gonna keep on- it's gonna affect me in the long run.

Ana Ramirez

And I felt like there was a social cost of taking a leave, because I feel like it's frowned upon. I felt like there's this unsaid thing of- you can't handle the pressure of academia. And I think I've had other people in my life kind of just really kind of mentioned it in another way of just like- for example, if you underwent a very bad car crash, and it had physical effects on your body, then people would be more understanding of that. So similar to what it is that you underwent, you know, it has a toll.

Ana Ramirez

I think seeing it that way kind of helped me just really kind of quiet down any of those voices, and just any of those thoughts. It's been really positive. I feel like where I'm at, I feel very whole. I feel very balanced. I feel like I have very clear ideas of what it is that I want. It's very interesting. When I went into my PhD program, I actually went with the intention of not being a tenure track faculty member. I've been working in nonprofits for a while, and my approach to doing nonprofit work, especially programming, was to be very community informed. I remember when I was working in Kansas City in a nonprofit, we were thinking of developing some kind of youth program. And we had people at this meeting to be community informed, but they're all white people in their 40s and 50s, trying to decide- and this neighborhood, it was predominately Black and Brown.

Ana Ramirez

And I got suggested like, why don't we talk to the kids that we're planning to do this for? I ended up doing lots of interviews, talking with people, and just got a lot of feedback. I really liked the work that I did, and I felt like I did a lot of community informed kind of research with my programming and the work that I've done in nonprofits. But I felt like that got me so far. I felt like in the nonprofit world, even though this was my approach, I felt like often, the folks I worked with in nonprofit leaned heavily on consultants. I felt like my experience or expertise wasn't legitimized.

Ana Ramirez

And I felt like I wanted to be a community researcher, like I wanted that legitimization. I felt like being a Brown woman in this world, I feel like I'm not taken seriously. I saw the PhD as a legitimizer, a way to do the work that I know I'm really good at, and I can do. That's kind of why I found more of an activist anthropology strain. There's a community of folks who do participatory research at my university, and those are people that I got involved with. So I just kind of give that context to say that even before my PhD, my intention was to work more in this kind of community informed research space.

Ana Ramirez

But in my PhD, I felt like I lost track of my goals. All of a sudden, I felt like I had to perform and look to writing in high impact journals, look to all these presentations. I felt like my goals were thrown to the side. I felt like somehow the goals of being a tenure track professor, even though that's not what I wanted, nor is it what I want now, became in the center. And I was like, how did that happen?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Also how did you undo that? How did you see outside of that? That's what I'm curious about.

Ana Ramirez

In the leave. I say this to say, I felt like the leave of absence gave me that clarity to be like, wait. What are my career and life goals? Why is it that I felt like the university's goals and dreams of what it is I should be, or what I should be as a good grad student, became my goals. But that's not even what I wanted in the first place. You know, I tell a couple of people that I joined my Ph.D program, because I saw the Ph.D as a tool. But along the way, I forgot my why. And I felt like I became the tool.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, my goodness. What you're saying resonates with me and so many people that I know and that I've talked to, because a lot of us go into the PhD, not necessarily intending to become professors. And then, depending on which program you're at, but most programs are research based, that's what you're getting the PhD for. Because of the apprenticeship model that is part of academia, you are getting trained to become a professor and it's hard. Like I went in thinking I was going to become a community college professor, teacher of some sort. Then on my way, I was like, oh, I guess I have to be a research one professor. I have to be a professor program and get a tenure track job. When I was like, oh, maybe I'll be a community college professor, or maybe I'll be a staff member and all of that went - it was just there was only one option.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I hear that time and time again. There's so many folks, they start out thinking- I need the PhD to legitimate what I do, to be taken seriously, for me to be able to learn the skill set that I need to advance in my career. Then they get derailed in the grad program from that original thing that they wanted to do. And I'm like, I wonder if there is a way to preserve that original goal, or reminding yourself why you're doing it to begin with. Because that could be the reason to keep you going, or that could be the reason to have you take a leave of absence. That could be the reason to have you leave altogether, because then you realize, actually, nevermind. I may not need it after all.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm sorry, I just went on a rant because what you said just really, it's one of those things that I'm like, it gets me frustrated. I can see it, because I'm outside of it too. Just like when I moved outside of the United States, I realized how toxic the US is and how toxic hyper capitalistic workaholic culture is. After having moved to another country where the pace is slower, and people, quite frankly, don't care what you do for a living. No one's ever asked me what I do for a living here. It's so refreshing, so refreshing. Nobody cares, because they just care about you as a human. You know, it's like, oh, what do you like? Do you like coffee? No one asks you what you do. In fact, it might even be considered rude to ask people- so what do you do?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

They see you as someone who doesn't necessarily have to always be productive. But yeah, it's just, it's so powerful what you're saying about how taking this leave of absence, having a pause, having a moment outside of the institution, has allowed you to see more clearly and think. I don't even know how to put into words. It's like you're reminded of this is why I did it to begin with? Or maybe things have shifted for you. I'm not sure.

Ana Ramirez

Definitely. It's so true. And sometimes I feel like there's quite a lot of gaslighting that happens in the university. I feel like the apprenticeship model sometimes feels more like grooming, where you're not allowed to really pursue what it is that you want. But you're kind of groomed to think a particular way or to want a certain thing, and I feel like it's just to kind of keep the corporate university in tact and to affirm.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But if you tell someone in it that it's a corporate university, hyper capitalistic, neoliberal model, when they themselves are the ones critiquing. They're like, oh, you sold out? Oh, now you're in business, that it's not ethical for you to do this and this. Like, how is it any different from what you're doing? We all have to pay our bills, and we all have to decide what we want and what we're willing to do. But I just don't understand- you're right- this whole model of thinking that you're better than anything outside of academia.

Ana Ramirez

Definitely, and I think honestly, before I started my leave, I had a good friend of mine from my Ph.D. program recommend a book called Work Won't Love You Back. It was super helpful, just to kind of really set the tone of what it is that I was looking for. I think for me, I started my leave to really figure out- what are my values? What are things that I want to work for?

Ana Ramirez

I think kind of getting away from the university, and getting away from the workaholism of my colleagues helped me realize I want balance in my life. I want work- life balance. I'm an avid hiker. I live in North Carolina, and I actually went and looked at- so my thing is I like hiking and I look like looking for waterfalls. So I did that two times this weekend, and I'm going to do that this weekend, too. I want to actually, right now, build the life that I want.

Ana Ramirez

And there's certain things you know, like I want the autonomy to live where I want to live, rather than my whole career be dependent on, for example, where there's an R1 university. I want the opportunity to not take work home. I don't want my identity to be built around that. I felt like being able to really figure out- because I think my mindset, for some reason, like I said my idea wasn't to be a professor. But I think how things started shifting was I felt like it was all bundled up in professorship, like my advocacy, my community work, my identity as an Indigenous woman, my research- and being told constantly, we need people like you. Like the university is going to change. It's like what? Like, no.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

And then there's the guilt tripping, of like we need you.

Ana Ramirez

Yes. And then sometimes hearing that from students that I think are well meaning. But it's kind of like, I am running on empty. I can't keep doing this. This is having actual, physiological effects on my body and I can't keep doing this. I felt like I really wanted to be clear about what are the things I want. One of the other things I want is generational wealth. I don't come from a family of generational wealth, and I want to build that for myself and my future.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Can I just say how powerful it is for you as an Indigenous mujer to say you want generational wealth, and you want that for the generations after you because we all deserve it, but especially as an Indigenous mujer. Okay, that's it. I just wanted to say yes. I want to yell.

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, definitely. And I can't wait, or be in a situation where the job market isn't good, and be expecting things are gonna work out. I was always told, you're gonna find a job. You're gonna be a shoo in. And look at the statistics. I felt like, I was, for some reason, with academia, I was relying on feelings. Like oh, it's gonna work out and those things, rather than actually looking at the statistics, looking at the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The job growth is very little.

Ana Ramirez

And there are other industries, or other roles that are much more fruitful. There's much more opportunities. I think I'm coming from a place of- you know, I actually have spreadsheets where I have things rated, like what does the work-life balance look like in this career? What does the job growth look like? Is there stability? I'm trying to look at things clearly now.

Ana Ramirez

Like I said, I think balance is really what I want, balance to build the life that I want, to build that generational wealth, to have time with family and friends, to go hiking and look for waterfalls, to do these other things that are so important to me. I think it's kind of funny, we say work- life balance, and it seems like it's work and life, like they're two things. But it's like, work, life, family, friends, community work, advocacy. There's so much other things, and work is a part of it. I'm still figuring out what that's gonna look like. But I think for me, balance is very much the key word there.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I'm really excited. I am inspired by hearing about you and your experience, and just how far you've come in taking this leave of absence, because I can imagine that at the start of this, you probably were not thinking all of these things. So that's huge, that's huge growth. I'm like, I'm just meeting you and I'm already so proud of you.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But also, I think that the folks who listen to this podcast and listen to you, and everything that you've shared, they're going to resonate with something that you've said, and you're going to inspire them too to really rethink like, what am I doing? Is this in alignment with my values? And how do I want to live my life? Who am I outside of what I do at school, if they're an undergrad or grad student?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So I want to get close to the second to last question, which is advice. Advice for folks who are listening, or folks who may be in a similar spot where they're running on empty, where they might be struggling with their mental health, their physical health, or something else that might be going on with them, where they feel like they they could benefit from taking a pause in their programs. So what kind of advice would you give to folks who are debating this at this time?

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, I think that what comes to mind is you don't have to be a superhero. You don't have to be one to carry all of this by yourself. I think for me opening up to trusted people- and I felt like there's some people that I opened up to, but it didn't really lead anywhere. But I think opening up that I needed something, like there's something I needed. I felt like I finally found someone when the person- Kathy is her name- told me you know, a leave of absence is an option. I was like, I had no idea.

Ana Ramirez

I felt like connecting with other people just kind of helped me find resources. I opened up to someone and they mentioned there's this resource to help pay for people who are survivors and pay for therapy, and that helped me just kind of as I was in grad school, getting the help I needed. Because I was like, I'm not going to take the leave until a year and a half later. So how am I going to take care of myself now- now and for the future. I think opening up helped me find resources, helped me find friends, and helped me kind of build a community to keep myself afloat. I say opening up, just because if a leave of absence is something you're thinking about, it's not an easy decision to make. It helps to have people to share what's going on, share your experiences, and know that you're not alone.

Ana Ramirez

Even as I was kind of opening up, I found this vast literature written about sexual assault that happens in academia. That happens. A lot of is actually written by black women, by black feminists. I think one of the things that they were commenting on is sometimes women of color are very susceptible or vulnerable to this. What happens- I don't remember the name of the article, but I can share it with you later - is there are folks who have more of a predatory mindset. And when there's someone who's young, who's a woman, who's looking for help, some people take advantage of that. And that's what happened to me. It was someone who was older than me, that I really admired, and I was so excited to work with him. He took advantage of that. So even the act of opening up and looking for even relevant literature, because I guess, as a researcher, that's what I do for my own healing.

Ana Ramirez

It just helped me realize I'm definitely not alone. There's ways to persist. If I decide to continue on with my PhD, I feel like I'm continuing on as a survivor. And if I decide to leave, then I'm leaving, because I have all these reasons- maybe my career reasons or my other reasons. I feel like I'm not just reacting to what happened solely, but I have all these other reasons of why I want to continue, or why I don't want to continue. It feels really good to be where I'm at, and know, that even the bad, that action that happened towards me, that doesn't have to define me. I'm not gonna give that power to that one person to define my whole life, or my career, or my life trajectory.

Ana Ramirez

So I guess what I would say is just don't be afraid to open up. It may be, it won't be easy, but I think you'll find a lot of allies and comrades along the way. Maybe a leave is what you need, or maybe even accommodations. I actually had accommodations for a while, during my year and a half that I was still working on my thesis. There's ways around.

Ana Ramirez

I think there's different tools that are available for you and it's just figuring out, what are those tools? Or what are those combination of tools that you need? I think for me that was what really helped me realize that it's not always black and white. Like, I feel this way, it's overwhelming. I either quit or continue, and continue and maybe have chronic health problems. There's ways in between, and maybe you don't see people taking advantage of those other tools, but don't be afraid to be the one who does it. At the end of the day, you're the one who's like living your life. I think for me, I just wanted to do what was better for me, and I'm so grateful I did.

Ana Ramirez

It sounds like connecting, opening up to others, having this time to reflect- that and already being someone who has advocated for yourself in the past, like you said, you had these accommodations. That's all kind of helped you get to this point, to this space and place of healing and growth. I just want to thank you. I know that there might be folks who want to reach out to you. If they do, if they want to connect, if they want to maybe ask a follow up question, is there a place for them to reach you?

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, email would be best. And if they're on LinkedIn, LinkedIn is also really great, too.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Definitely LinkedIn. And then if there's any thing that you mentioned, like one of the articles that you said aboutpredatory behavior, incidents of sexual abuse, and anything that has helped you in your own healing journey of just learning, reading navigating this process, I'm happy to add that to the show notes as well.

Ana Ramirez

Yeah, definitely.

Ana Ramirez

Well, Ana, thank you so much. It has been such a pleasure having you on and speaking with you. It feels like just talking to a comadre. I felt really comfortable talking to you. Yes, we're comadreando right?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

These are the platicas. These are the conversations that folks have behind closed doors, that we don't often have enough in public spaces. If more folks knew that these conversations were happening, then I think more of us would be getting the help and support that we need. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for sharing your story, your experience, your wisdom, your knowledge, todo. Thank you so much.

Ana Ramirez

Yes, of course, such a pleasure.