137: Pros and Cons of Getting a Master’s Degree Abroad with Dr. Max Schneider

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Welcome back, everyone to the Grad School Femtoring Podcast. This is your host, Doctora Yvette. And today I have an episode for you all about the pros and cons of getting a master's degree abroad. It's a topic that I'm really excited about because I myself am abroad and wish I had pursued these opportunities much sooner. And I also have a really special guest, a longtime friend of mine.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

His name is Dr. Max Schneider, and he is an applied statistician who recently got his PhD in statistics from the University of Washington. He starts in May as a research Statistician in the Operational Aftershock Forecasting Team at the US Geological Survey. His research is on the quantification and visualization of uncertainty in spatial and spatio-temporal models of natural disasters, such as Earth, such as earthquakes and hurricanes. And there's actually a lot more to max, which I'm sure he's gonna share, as I asked him a little bit more about himself. So welcome to the podcast. Dr. Max, I'm happy to have you.

Dr. Max Schneider

Thank you so much, Yvette, I'm really happy to be speaking with you and your listeners,

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Of course. So for those that don't know you, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself your backstory, what led you to pursuing graduate study abroad, and then a PhD in statistics back in the US and tell us a little bit more about that experience? And I know you're, you're abroad now. So you can also chat about that?

Dr. Max Schneider

Totally. Yeah. So maybe I'll start with where I am now. So I'm sitting in Berlin, Germany. I've been here for a few months, I working as a postdoctoral researcher at the German Research Center for geosciences. And what I'm working on here is the visualization of seismic hazard in Germany. So seismic hazard is just how much the ground is going to shake due to earthquakes. And we can we can estimate that using physical and statistical models. And then my work is to take the outputs of those models, and think about how best to visualize them in a map. And so we're using these principles from visualization and statistical research to improve how we make these seismic hazard maps, and to test them against the starting maps, the baseline maps that we had before. Yeah, so my work is all about like, you know, this earthquake modeling, which requires statistics and seismology, geophysics, but also this visualization and risk communication about these earthquake models, so that people can understand what is it that we did, and why is it important? And so that requires computer science and psychology and behavioral science to understand how these different ways of visualizing and communicating about earthquake risk, how they affect people, and which ones have actually the desired effects.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Interesting. And I know you from our time in California, how did you get from California to Germany?

Dr. Max Schneider

Yeah, so I to answer that question. I think I have to start all the way back to where I was born.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's what we want to hear, go!

Dr. Max Schneider

Day zero. So day zero was in Ukraine. That's where my family's from. And yeah. And so we moved, most of my family moved to the US when I was five, we settled in Northern California near San Francisco when I was seven. So I grew up in Northern California. And, you know, like, in most immigrant families, I grew up with a strong focus on school and grades, but also in doing other extracurricular things to kind of balance yourself out. And I grew up doing a lot of community service, and in high school, even leading my community service organizations. At the same time, I was excelling in math and science. I was able to skip a grade in middle school for math. And so I you know, that kind of pushed me to like get better and better at math. And but I also really thought science was cool because it was like these practical problems, right?

Dr. Max Schneider

So by the time I got to UCLA, which is where we met, and we met in a context completely outside like community service, or math or science. We met in theater. Yes. A shout out to Hooligan. Yes. And all the other theatre organizations at UCLA that, you know, a lot of us "non-theatre" students were were participating in. And so yes, I was doing that I, but I thought that I wanted to study science. And so I thought I wanted to study chemistry specifically. And I was taking a lot of chemistry classes and math classes in the first year at UCLA. And I found I liked my math classes more.

Dr. Max Schneider

So in my second year, I was like, Well, why don't I try like a statistics class, just kind of see what that's like. And it was such a cool class. It was a probability class applied to poker. And in class, we would, the professor would play like, some televised poker tournament. And then he would pause the clip right before they revealed the last card, and we would calculate the probability that, you know, some player would get a full house or three of a kind, or whatever combination, and I thought it was so cool that we could translate like an actual problem in the world to this probability statement, and then calculate it and get the the actual number that we wanted to know.

Dr. Max Schneider

So, I ended up studying statistics, pursuing a major in that, but I was still really interested in the humanities and the social sciences, I did have a minor in human complex systems, which is this really cool interdisciplinary, social science minor at UCLA. And I also got to do a semester abroad in London. And so I was able to do a research project with a professor at the University College London, like, that's kind of, I went there to do this research project. And, and I got my first foray into research. Actually, my first year at UCLA, when I was exploring the options in chemistry, I met this atmospheric chemist, and started working with him, you know, my first year, just just helping out in his lab. And that got me really excited about environmental research and earth science research. And then I met this environmental Statistician in London, and he invited me to come and do a research project there, you know, in the middle of, of my undergrad, and I didn't really know so much what I was doing, but it sounded really exciting.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You've always been one to take risks, I always admired that about you, I would have been so nervous to go. But I guess that's it, you know, it's a lot of transitions, like you said, being a child of immigrants, going to college, all those things are prepping you for this.

Dr. Max Schneider

Totally. And, I didn't really know anyone in London, but I knew that the topic was interesting to me. And that I really wanted to get this international experience on my own, rather than, you know, in like family trips, to visit my grandparents and things like that. So I did that. I really, really enjoyed it. It also had a lot of challenges. And I'm sure we'll come back to those. But I came back to LA, finished my degree, and was working. So I didn't want to do a master's or graduate program straight away. Because I, I wanted to do something kind of practical, right? Like that was the community service element. And me like I wanted to give back in some way or to do something that wasn't all that academic immediately after being a student for so long.

Dr. Max Schneider

So I was working for nonprofits, kind of doing statistical analysis for several nonprofits in the San Francisco area. And after a little while of that. So in 2012, I had two family trips planned to Ukraine that, that I kind of committed to because my grandparents were still living in Ukraine. And I, they were in March and June of 2012. And I was thinking at the time, you know, what am I going to do? I didn't, I was kind of ready for a change after a year of working in nonprofits. I was actually interested in going back and doing something academic. And so I reached out to like all of my professors and all the contacts that I've made in my undergrad and just asked if anyone knew of any opportunities in Europe because I was going to be in Ukraine anyway, in March and in June of 2012.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

So was this? This was planned out as in you knew you wanted to be in Europe, and you knew you wanted to pursue grad school there. Is that what I'm hearing? Or were you looking for opportunities just because you were gonna be there, but short term opportunities?

Dr. Max Schneider

It was more that it was more the second one. And, you know, I was just kind of looking for both something to fill that time, but something that would take me back into the academic context. But I wasn't really like, I had no thought in my head about pursuing a master's in Germany like so. I mean, I didn't speak a word of German when I got to Berlin. So basically, what happened was, I had, I met this guy who had just finished his PhD in the same department where I finished my bachelor's, the Department of Statistics at UCLA, and he was doing a postdoc in a research center, actually the one that I'm working in now. And so he invited me to come and do an internship with him for those few months that I had in between the family trips, and I thought, well, that would be exciting. And, and that was, you know, this earthquake science research center. And I knew that it was a really exciting topic, something I was interested in. So I said, sure, let's do it.

Dr. Max Schneider

And, yeah, I mean, one thing led to another, so the internship worked really, really well. It turned into a short term job. And they could only offer me a short position, because I well, it was, they didn't really have like, a position available for me. So they kind of had like a guest position that they could offer me and then they were like, well, it would be a lot easier to keep you on in the team. If you were a student, then we can offer you a student position. And that's like something set up that we have available. And so I thought about it, and I was loving my time in Berlin, I was really enjoying the experience of this research center and this topic of earthquake science and modeling earthquakes and testing them and kind of dismisses stats in earthquakes. And so I said, Sure, let's try it. Why not? And, and that's what led to, you had this long term move in 2012, to Germany to Berlin, the master's program was filled with challenges, which will, we'll kind of go into, but just to like, kind of jump to where I went next.

Dr. Max Schneider

So after finishing the Master's in, in Germany, I searched for a PhD, I wanted to get a PhD in statistics and continue this kind of applied environmental research. And I did a global search, and ended up with a great opportunity at the University of Washington, but with many kinds of returns to Berlin and Germany, to work with both my old research group at that at that earthquake center, but then a different research group, as I got into this, like psychology of visualizations work. And so I after five years, in Germany, I spent another five years, kind of going back and forth between Seattle, University of Washington, and Berlin.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's, um, that's really interesting, because you're just showing how there are so many possibilities that are out there that we don't even know of. And we think, "Oh, I'm just going to apply." You actually reached out to your network. And then from one thing led to another to another. I want to hear a little bit more about specifically the pros and cons of that time, your experience, back and forth and in the master's program abroad. And I'm happy to have you share I don't know if you prefer to share the the pros first or the cons first. So maybe we can start with the challenges, and then kind of get to the benefits or the pros or the things that you gained from it.

Dr. Max Schneider

Sure, sure. We'll end on the good note. Well, yeah, so there's definitely difficulties in any kind of abroad study experience. I'll try to distinguish between those that I think were specific to Germany and to my experience, and then those that I think might be general across other international study experiences. So, yeah, I mean, one that was really tough for me was the language barrier. My program was not an international master's program. So there's there's several kinds of master's programs in Germany, there's ones where everything is taught in English, and they're attracting an international cohort of students. That was not my program. My program was largely in German. And so I was told that there would be plenty of opportunities to take English language classes. And in that's how I got out of the German language requirements. The program basically wrote a letter saying maximum in English.

Dr. Max Schneider

And when I showed up for the classes that I ...okay, so also one more important thing is that my program was in mathematics, which is not really what I studied. In my undergrad, I studied statistics, I studied a very applied environmental statistics. In fact, like, the most math that I took for my, my statistics major, well, in Germany, that's still considered like high school math. And so I was jumping into a very rigorous and intense mathematics master's program. And on my first day, my classes were all in German.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Oh, my goodness, I can only imagine the overwhelm.

Dr. Max Schneider

The overwhelm, it was, it was pretty massive. And I also, I mean, this was kind of a personal challenge then. But my university is in Potsdam, which is like, a beautiful city, it's got big palaces and parts, it's where the Kaisers would go for their, like summer weekend getaways. But that's about an hour and a half from where I was living in, in Berlin. And so I had these super long train rides, whereas at UCLA, I was like living across the street from campus. So I now had these super long train rides in the early morning. And, and, and then, you know, I had to come into a German only environment.

Dr. Max Schneider

But so I, I figured out a way to kind of hit both birds with that stone there. So every, every week, I would make this stack of flashcards for like, whatever the topic of my lectures was, for that week. And, and I would just sit on the train, and I would have ample time to go through those flashcards multiple times, and really commit those words to memory. I was taking a German class, you know, at the language center on campus, as well, but it was it was really German one. So I, I had to do a lot of self study, I had to take a lot of time with, you know, like office hours with my professors, and, also really work with my classmates,

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Were they patient with you, given the language?

Dr. Max Schneider

I think they really took pity on me. They, I mean, a lot of them had already done the bachelors program in that same university, so they came straight in from the bachelors program into the master's program. And and that's another thing that's a bit different about the European approach to graduate education is that a lot of ... like master's programs are usually disconnected from PhD programs. That like...

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

They're not MA/PhD, they're more like, an extension of the BA or what or can you distinguish?

Dr. Max Schneider

So I would, I would say, it's, it's kind of like an extension of the BA. It's, it's a, like you're getting deeper into the, into the field. And also the...

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

because I've seen some programs, for instance, like a UC Santa Barbara, and a lot of the STEM programs, engineering programs. These students if they meet certain qualifications, they just go straight into a master's program and it's one year and then all of a sudden they leave with their BA and their master's degree. And I always got the impression that the Masters programs were different and not as advanced, I guess per se as the PhDs or is that a misinterpretation or, you know, because I haven't done it, I haven't pursued graduate study abroad. So this is an area where you're teaching me.

Dr. Max Schneider

Right. Before I answer your question, I'm just I think maybe my headphones are no longer giving the audio. Could you tell me if you hear any audio?

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I hear you fine? Yeah, I think we're good.

Dr. Max Schneider

Oh good. Okay, great. Great. So, to answer your question, it's a slightly different system. Because there used to so in Germany, actually, in every European country that you saw kind of their own approach to education. And in Germany, for example, there was a single degree program that ended with a diploma that was the equivalent of a master's degree. It was called a diploma, you did a thesis at the end of it, and it was a four or five year program. So then, like, every European country had a different way. And most of them actually didn't have dedicated master's programs. They just had either like, you know, something short before the PhD, or something short after the bachelors.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Like a post bacc program, or what do you mean, when you say something short?

Dr. Max Schneider

Yes. So like, like, either it was a separate program. Like a master's in the US, basically. Or it was it was like some special preparation prior to doing the PhD. Or it was like in the German style, kind of this one program that encompasses both bachelors and masters, I see. And then there's been a standardization of the European educational systems that now like every country has masters and bachelors as separate programs. And what that's done in Germany, for example, is it's created all these interesting opportunities for international master's programs, because now departments have to, you know, figure out how they're doing their master's education. And a lot of them are taking the opportunity to internationalize and to like, you know, really expand their offerings, and especially offer a lot of English language masters instruction.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Is this a recent shift? Or was this already in existence when you were there for your program?

Dr. Max Schneider

It started a couple years before I got there. So it's like, you know, 12 to 15 years old, that this has been around. So I was my program, like I mentioned, it wasn't an international program. So one of the benefits, we're talking about challenges, but then also benefits of, of International Programs, is that are sort of master's programs abroad, is that you could really benefit actually, from a lot of different universities. In the German system, I think this holds across a lot of European systems, you're allowed to take classes and work at other other universities. So I ended up taking a lot of classes at the Berlin universe. So the other three universities, that Berlin area, and I I took some classes in these international English language master's programs at other universities, which were in their infancy. So I was one of the guinea pigs.

Dr. Max Schneider

But yeah, they're really like, you know, a lot of them are excellent programs. And they also really attract, you know, as their intention to this international cohort of students. And I think that's another huge benefit of, of being in an international master's program or any kind of, you know, master's program abroad is that you're an international student and you're surrounded by lots of other international students. I was taking classes with people from Slovakia to Brazil, to Tanzania to Australia, like, just across the world, people are coming and and so you gained this exposure not just to the country that you're living in, but to all these other perspectives from around the world. And, and I think that really like it, it develops a lot in you, and it develops your network in this really amazing way. And it changes how you see yourself, how you see yourself in the world.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

How you identify too because where you are, also shifts, how you relate to other people how other people view you, you know, you know, I think about myself, much as I'm American as much as my time now where I open my mouth, and people instantly know I'm from the US.

Dr. Max Schneider

Right, right. And so, you know, you gain a lot of humility, and that experience, I think you but you really gained that through this change in perspective, like, all of a sudden, I'm not, I'm not just, you know, like, surrounded by let's say, people like me, people with the same cultural background, or the same your national background, I I am surrounded by people who come from everywhere. And yeah, and I think that, that develops such a richness of experience and of opinions and, and kind of giving you this, like different leverage point from how you see your own background, your own life story.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

You know, so what I'm hearing from you and your experiences that, from the side of the challenges, there was this very big language barrier, because you weren't in an international program, per se, you were in a master's program with other German speakers and had to learn German from from zero from level one, in a graduate level program. And in a discipline that wasn't necessarily one you were 100% trained in. So that's a lot. And, and you had a long commute so many, many challenges.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

But then on the opposite end of things you gained a lot you gained the experience of this training is expanding your network, meeting a global community, learning another language. I feel like... I'm wondering if you could go back in time. Is this still the trajectory the route that you would take of pursuing a master's degree in this way? Or would you have preferred to go straight into the international program? Because sometimes, I wonder that I am living in Portugal, and I'm in a city south of Portugal, where there are more locals than there are, quote, unquote, expats or immigrants or just foreigners. And so for me, I get that exposure of the language and that shock and that humility all the time of like, Oh, I really need to learn this language, because no one's going to talk to me in English. I wonder, because I can imagine that you probably learned, as you know, just like, at an exponential rate, because you were forced to, as opposed to if you were in an international community, maybe you would have, you wouldn't, I don't know, maybe it would have been different. What would you have done differently? I guess another question of mine is, would you have done it differently? Or what would you have done differently?

Dr. Max Schneider

That's a great question. I don't know I, I mean, I'll, I'll kind of, yeah, be real, but then also keep it positive, because I do feel really good about where I am now. But at the time, it was a huge struggle. And, you know, another another issue that I think every international student experiences is culture clash. And, you know, I had not only culture clash, but I also had climate clash. Because I grew up in California. I, before I started my master's program in the fall semester, right, I got, you know, this beautiful southern Berlin and everything was great. And, and I was lucky, I had a lot of friends already in Berlin, somehow, like, I had some really good connections, also for my time in London, who were in Berlin. So like, socially, you know, I was in a good space, but but then winter came, and I was in this master's program surrounded by Germans. And you know, I had never experienced a winter before that was my first one like a full fledge. It was also the greatest winter on record in Germany, like the least number of sunlight hours, I got a vitamin D deficiency. I, my vision started to deteriorate actually, I had to get glasses. So I mean,

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Was that related?

Dr. Max Schneider

I'm not entirely sure if that was because of the low sunlight hours, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna blame it, at least partially, you know. But literally, I remember I was sitting in a final exam, it was my second semester, and like, my vision was like, starting to shake, like, I couldn't see the paper anymore. And I did not do great on that exam. But I went and got glasses right after that. So there were challenges I definitely had, you know, that affected my mental health. It was, it was not an immediate recovery, I had to, like, get diagnosed and treated for the vitamin D deficiency and for my vision impairment, and, and so I had to start taking care of myself in new ways. And and it is hard to do that in a different country where you're still learning the language. And, you know, life happens, wherever you are. And so, but what I will say is that, that really built this resourcefulness and this resilience and this kind of problem solving capacity. And because like you said, I was forced to do a lot of my education in German.

Dr. Max Schneider

I mean, I'm also lucky that I grew up bilingual. And so I had some language. And then, you know, I took Spanish in high school and college and shout out to the hispano hablantes in Berlin, because they really helped me keep my Spanish strong too. So acquiring German was difficult, but it was, it wasn't my first new language. But yeah, like I, I did have to overcome those things and figure out how, and I think when you do that, you develop a lot of capabilities that you didn't have before. And, and so I'm actually really happy that I had that experience, because I think if I had just done an international English only Master's, I would not have my German nearly at the level. You know, German is probably like my best second language now. And it's only because I had to really dive feet first into it and learn how to swim. And I'm really, really grateful for the consequences of the journey through those obstacles.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

This is great, because I'm glad that you're not just focusing on the positive, I know, it can be really easy and tempting to want to romanticize our time abroad. And that's a lot of what we see on social media and blogs. And the truth of the matter is that there are good times and bad times, there are, you know, challenges and there are benefits that you gain from this time. So it's helpful to get your input from your own experience. Now for listeners who are hearing you, and have that, that travel bug or they have that sense that they want to pursue graduate study abroad, and they've been thinking about this, I want to get my master's degree abroad, or I want to pursue any type of program abroad. What kind of advice do you have to offer them? If they're interested, but they're a little nervous or not sure where to start?

Dr. Max Schneider

Yeah, so I would say, use your resources there. So the internet is a big place with a lot of information, and, and especially universities, you know, every university is different, and every country system is a bit different in terms of how much they advertise or inform or recruit online. But I would, I would start with searching around and I would start with trying to get in contact with both the professionals at those universities that you might be interested in. The when I say professionals, I mean, the administrators in the departments. There's often folks whose job it is to speak to international students. There's their centers for that in different universities or kind of collections of universities.

Dr. Max Schneider

Another really good way of getting some information about how it actually is, is from people who are doing programs right now or who have just graduated from those programs. And so you can find those people with LinkedIn searches, you can find those people through your own networks, if you have any connections at those universities, maybe through your, your professors, or, or just anyone who you might meet like, I mean, sometimes you have to send out a few of those information, requests, emails, by someone will finally respond. And we'll, we'll be happy to talk to you. And I think persistence is essential, because it, things don't always work out on the first row. And, and that's really, you know, another life lesson from that international study experience. Like, it will not always be easy right away, or like you won't necessarily get your goals accomplished. Immediately, like maybe it'll take a little bit longer than you anticipate. But that scenic route to your destination is often so much more rewarding and useful long term. Yeah, so I would say really use your resources and your networks as much as possible to get information ahead of time to, you know, know everything you need for the application process. And for like, what it would mean to be successful in that program in that country.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

I really love what you said about that scenic route being the most rewarding long term.

Dr. Max Schneider

But it's usually longer, the scenic route is not the quick, it's not the expressway. And that like the thing that I would would add to that, and especially for folks who might be in a master's program abroad right now, is that you really have to trust yourself and not your ego. And that's been, you know, a really great lesson for me is that like, your ego will be bruised by by doing any kind of graduate program, and any kind of international experience, but the two together like you can expect to have long stretches where you feel like you don't know very much, maybe nothing at all, nobody understands you, and you're not even sure how to order lunch. And so totally happens you will end up getting some lunch, you will get fed, you will figure it out like and I get when I say trust yourself, not your ego, what I mean really is trust, your resilience, your perseverance, your ability to withstand, because that's actually you at your core and, and your ego will bounce back your your confidence will return your perspective will get sunnier especially if you figure out ways to take care of yourself in that new environment. But that resilience, that perseverance, it'll get sharpened and and it's actually what's gonna get you to the finish line.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

That's great. That's a wonderful way to wrap up today's show now for folks who resonated with what you said, and they want to connect after this. Is there a way for them to reach you?

Dr. Max Schneider

Sure. I'm happy to give my email address.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Or any social I think I'm not sure. Go ahead.

Dr. Max Schneider

So I'm on Twitter, I'm on Twitter. My handle is @mschneiderstats. So all together lowercase one word @mchneiderstats. Anyone who's interested in in those research areas of kind of visualization, communication and modeling of natural hazards and earthquakes, please reach out to me. I'd be happy to talk to any students who are interested in that direction. And if you want to hear more or just getting inspired to do an international study experience, I'd be happy to be that person. So don't hesitate to reach out on Twitter, and my email address is all so easy to find online or maybe we put it in the in the show notes too.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Yeah, I'm happy to include your Twitter handle and email in the show notes. Thank you once again, Max. It's been so nice to have this conversation with you for you to share your knowledge, your experience your wisdom, with my listeners. It's been really nice having you.

Dr. Max Schneider

It's been such a pleasure for me of you. I really love your show. And yeah, keep doing what you're doing because it's amazing.

Dra. Yvette Martínez-Vu

Thank you.